Maximum of 3 aircraft permitted in Vancouver-area Circuits!

[More-rudder!]

Oh my god, can we talk about this: Flight training on the west coast is being suffocated by NavCanada management decision-making! The word on the ramp is that NavCanada has restricted coffee consumption in the cabs and the controller are having trouble keeping up with the radio traffic! Seriously?

[16SidedOffice]

Pretty sure that's not really a thing.

[CpnCrunch]

"Pretty sure that's not really a thing."

I think the coffee was a joke, but the rest is true.

There was a post on the BC General Aviation group about this a while ago after someone complained that YNJ was only allowing 3 aircraft in the circuit. Here is the explanation from one of the YPK controllers explaining the situation:

"There are many variables at play in the decision to limit circuit traffic. At YPK,  we could work 6-8 in the circuit if there was not much traffic in the surrounding area. At night, it’s easier to work more in the circuit because there are not as many itinerant aircraft in the vicinity, nor float planes, nor helicopters.  I have learned the hard lesson many times, allowing more aircraft in the circuit only to have a runway change from two runways down to one or a very large and sudden arrival bash. Pilots have to understand there is a lot more going on within the confines of the tower than you may be aware of. I find limiting traffic the only way to maintain a safe environment for all. So, please, in this new age of pilot, shortages, a massive amount of ESL pilots (who I have a lot of respect for by the way, since it is very difficult to move to a new country and learn English at the same time as learning how to fly an aircraft), please have patience with us when we have to restrict. YPK hasn’t been this busy since 1981. We are dealing with many new controllers training in a difficult environment as well."

Also, virtually every sunny day now not only is class C airspace restricted for VFR (as it has been for years), as well as IFR flow control into YVR (again, happening for years), but now quite often VFR traffic simply isn't permitted into YVR at all. Pretty much every day I fly this is on the ATIS at nearby airports. This has just started happening in the last year or so.

At some point perhaps Nav Canada should just give up and let us manage it ourselves. Just have one tower controller managing YVR, and let us just leave the rest of the airspace a free-for-all that we can sort out ourselves using TCAS, ADS-B, radios and eyeballs. It's pretty much like this in the class E over the straits, and it works fine for the most part.

[Canadaflyer46]

YVR has become a national joke. Flow control/holds/vectors on a daily basis regardless of the weather. Whatever war the controllers are fighting it's gone beyond ridiculous now.

[wordstwice]

what war are controllers fighting? Its called being extremely short staffed and in your world I guess that's the controllers fault?!?!

Never mind the hiring freeze during covid, the halt on all training, the slow to recover decisions made by Nav Canada.....it MUST be some war the actually front line controllers are doing.

Personally, I'm more than tired and frankly bordering on burnt out coming into work short staffed every day working with very few breaks, almost no days off. The only war I'm fighting is with my own brain as to why I haven't retired yet.

[CpnCrunch]

what war are controllers fighting? Its called being extremely short staffed and in your world I guess that's the controllers fault?!?!

Never mind the hiring freeze during covid, the halt on all training, the slow to recover decisions made by Nav Canada.....it MUST be some war the actually front line controllers are doing.

Personally, I'm more than tired and frankly bordering on burnt out coming into work short staffed every day working with very few breaks, almost no days off. The only war I'm fighting is with my own brain as to why I haven't retired yet.

I think most sensible people realise that the controllers are doing a great job. It's more a management failure.

[More-rudder!]

Interesting comments. Those who use the GVA airports know that our controllers do an awesome job, but I think it is crucial for the flight training operators to not get complacent. Circuit training accounts for at least 20% of all pilot training. Flight training operations need circuit access. Limiting a circuit to three aircraft is absolutely unrelated to safe operations. Is this myth promoted by local NavCanada decision-makers? Is it a breakdown in the local NavCanada leadership? Is it incompetence in NavCanada's ability to manage and plan for the local demand on controller hiring?

Pitt Meadows is unique as the north/south runway is so inadequate, clearly reflecting the failure of planners to foresee the massive increase in the user demand owing to population growth. Nevertheless, the decision to collapse twin runway operations onto one short runway owing to a 5-7 knot crosswind makes no sense to pilots. I fear that NavCanada perceives the 5-7 knot crosswind as an unacceptable safety risk!

What is the solution? How do we get back to 4-5 in the circuit? Is local NavCanada management working to solve this problem? They sure as heck don’t dialogue with the local users! Is it as simple as hiring more controllers? Do with need to clean house with respect to the current NavCanada decision-makers? Are we overworking our current controller staff? Do we need to downgrade the airspace classification from C back to D? Would such a downgrade provide local controllers with greater latitude to manage the increase in circuit traffic!

WTF! Let’s solve this problem folks!

[16SidedOffice]

I routinely see 6+ in the circuit at ZBB and also YXX, so the 3 max doesn't really hold much water. Maybe it's different at YPK and YNJ.

[rookiepilot]

what war are controllers fighting? Its called being extremely short staffed and in your world I guess that's the controllers fault?!?!

Never mind the hiring freeze during covid, the halt on all training, the slow to recover decisions made by Nav Canada.....it MUST be some war the actually front line controllers are doing.

Personally, I'm more than tired and frankly bordering on burnt out coming into work short staffed every day working with very few breaks, almost no days off. The only war I'm fighting is with my own brain as to why I haven't retired yet.

What i’ve heard more than once, from different sources, is on nice days controllers call in sick and head to the beach. Hence, short staffed.

I know Vancouver culture well enough to easily believe this.

[16SidedOffice]

What i’ve heard more than once, from different sources, is on nice days controllers call in sick and head to the beach. Hence, short staffed.

One or two people sick here or there doesn't make a unit short. It's when you are 6-10 people short every day and no one has called in sick. There's just no one available to come in.

[7ECA]

I know Vancouver culture well enough to easily believe this.

Your opinion is duly noted, resident of the centre of the universe.

I'm not at all surprised that a lot of the training airports are having to restrict circuit traffic, places like YPK end up with the Montair shitshow and a couple of other schools whom are trying their hands at the integrated program ESL student game - which immediately ends up as a complete and utter clusterfuck with the blind leading the blind. Yes, there's something to be said for students coming to a foreign land to learn to fly and learn the language... but, we all know those students whom have been "chosen" for the honour of coming to the frozen wasteland are from the gilded confines of the upper crust from China and elsewhere. Sure, there's a ton of pressure on them to succeed and for the schools to push them through with the utmost expedience to get their contract bonuses; but there's more than enough graft, waste and fluff built in that the students can be under performers and still get licensed.

Local students, if there even are many left, are the ones whom suffer from these restrictions - as well as local GA pilots.

[rookiepilot]

I know Vancouver culture well enough to easily believe this.

Your opinion is duly noted, resident of the centre of the universe.

I'm not at all surprised that a lot of the training airports are having to restrict circuit traffic, places like YPK end up with the Montair shitshow and a couple of other schools whom are trying their hands at the integrated program ESL student game - which immediately ends up as a complete and utter clusterfuck with the blind leading the blind. Yes, there's something to be said for students coming to a foreign land to learn to fly and learn the language... but, we all know those students whom have been "chosen" for the honour of coming to the frozen wasteland are from the gilded confines of the upper crust from China and elsewhere. Sure, there's a ton of pressure on them to succeed and for the schools to push them through with the utmost expedience to get their contract bonuses; but there's more than enough graft, waste and fluff built in that the students can be under performers and still get licensed.

Local students, if there even are many left, are the ones whom suffer from these restrictions - as well as local GA pilots.

I’ve lived there too, sport. I know it well.

I’ll repeat what I’ve said before, on the ESL business.

English is the language of aviation— at least in this country. ( I thought everywhere)

Instructors — WTF are you doing authorizing any student to fly in busy airspace and tie up radio time before they can understand and be understood clearly — the first time?

Class C or D airspace isn’t the place for ESL lessons.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

The issue at my airport where I'm a controller is that for several hours of the day, I'm the only controller on duty at a time. Not in position... actually the only person in the building. I could open the tower in the morning and my relief doesn't enter the building for another 3 hours. After 3 hours working on your own without a break and no time to eat or use the bathroom facilities, you can bet that I start to get fatigued. So, the safest thing is to reduce traffic. Or, I can reduce traffic right off the bat so that I stay as mentally fresh for as long as possible.

Also remember, just because it's relatively quiet on the frequency, doesn't mean it's not busy in the tower cab. I could be copying down a full-route IFR clearance, talking on the phone to the maintenance garage to coordinate a runway closure for mowing or snow plowing, dealing with a last-minute RPAS (drone request) that's conveniently ALWAYS 1/2 mile final to my active runway, talking on the hotline to the IFR sector to coordinate an IFR release, recording and broadcasting the ATIS, talking with the FBO to coordinate some large biz jet parking because their ramp is full, perhaps the radar is on the fritz again and targets keep dropping off the screen, etc etc etc all while still controlling several in the circuit and multiple inbound and outbound itinerants.

The name of the game is to control in a Safe, Orderly and Expeditious manner, and in that order. You can bet my ego tells me that I can control more aircraft, but I know that the more spinning plates I try to keep up on my own, eventually one will fall. The good controller knows when to say to themselves "enough is enough" and reign it in to keep things moving safely. If that means the local flying club can't jam up the circuit with 6 aircraft at once, so be it.

And for those complaining that not enough controllers are being trained, right now there are a record number of trainees in the pipeline. The YYZ FIR normally runs 2 VFR Tower courses per year, and have for as long as I can remember. Now, they're up to 3 per year with no end in sight. I assume the same goes for FSS and IFR. Staffing is a known issue, and it looks like the company is taking that seriously and actively trying to remedy it.

[7ECA]

Instructors — WTF are you doing authorizing any student to fly in busy airspace and tie up radio time before they can understand and be understood clearly — the first time?

Class C or D airspace isn’t the place for ESL lessons.

You clearly have never instructed at an FTU with an integrated program, relying almost (or entirely) upon ESL students to keep the operation running. There is a significant incentive to "graduate" the classes on time - and even more so to get them out the door ahead of time. The reason being is that the contracts will have financial bonuses in place that are paid out by the referring airline/university/recruicting agency, etc., which means there are pressures placed upon instructors to ensure the students get through the program (and yes, there are considerable penalties for delays as well). Sure, you can CT a few students here and there and not ruffle too many feathers (unless of course they're one of the creme de la creme of the party hierarchy, if you catch my drift)... but trying to tack on a bunch of remedial flights and/or additional language proficiency lessons ain't gonna fly; pun intended.

So, what you inevitably end up with is a revolving door of instructors at these FTUs, because the instructors whom want their student(s) to succeed in a more traditional sense will see their star begin to fall especially if they continue to "hold back" the class. Whereas, the instructors who's students plough on ahead and meet the "targets" will have their standing grow. Yeah, it's a disgusting ass backwards incestuous system that largely rewards the sycophants and narcissists, while punishing and blacklisting the upright and honourable. But, that's capitalism at it's finest for you.

At a "normal" FTU, there's an incentive to keep students flying, but there's not that pressure lurking in the background to "graduate" or be penalized.

[rookiepilot]

Instructors — WTF are you doing authorizing any student to fly in busy airspace and tie up radio time before they can understand and be understood clearly — the first time?

Class C or D airspace isn’t the place for ESL lessons.

You clearly have never instructed at an FTU with an integrated program, relying almost (or entirely) upon ESL students to keep the operation running. There is a significant incentive to "graduate" the classes on time - and even more so to get them out the door ahead of time. The reason being is that the contracts will have financial bonuses in place that are paid out by the referring airline/university/recruicting agency, etc., which means there are pressures placed upon instructors to ensure the students get through the program (and yes, there are considerable penalties for delays as well). Sure, you can CT a few students here and there and not ruffle too many feathers (unless of course they're one of the creme de la creme of the party hierarchy, if you catch my drift)... but trying to tack on a bunch of remedial flights and/or additional language proficiency lessons ain't gonna fly; pun intended.

So, what you inevitably end up with is a revolving door of instructors at these FTUs, because the instructors whom want their student(s) to succeed in a more traditional sense will see their star begin to fall especially if they continue to "hold back" the class. Whereas, the instructors who's students plough on ahead and meet the "targets" will have their standing grow. Yeah, it's a disgusting ass backwards incestuous system that largely rewards the sycophants and narcissists, while punishing and blacklisting the upright and honourable. But, that's capitalism at it's finest for you.

At a "normal" FTU, there's an incentive to keep students flying, but there's not that pressure lurking in the background to "graduate" or be penalized.

But everyone says Aviation training in Canada is the gold standard of the world.

Graft? Isn’t that for third world countries only? Oh, wait…….

This isn’t Capitalism at all, BTW. This is the Liberal government ramming in foreign money in any way possible to distract from their failures, bagfuls of cash or otherwise, aviation safety (or lack of housing for everyone) be forgotten. Vote buying at its best, too.

[7ECA]

This isn’t Capitalism at all, BTW. This is the Liberal government ramming in foreign money in any way possible to distract from their failures, bagfuls of cash or otherwise, aviation safety (or lack of housing for everyone) be forgotten. Vote buying at its best, too.

You're a bit of a broken record there bud...

You do realize, and recall, that it was the Harper Conservatives whom opened the floodgates for TFWs back in the "good ol' days" right? I do believe it was Minister of Transport Flatt Raitt whom was at the helm, legislating AC pilots back to work, approving each and every TFW application the airlines threw her way, etc.

As for it not being capitalism, how so? The Chinese (or which ever country has a need for pilots), has a need to keep their economy going and needs more local pilots - Canada has an existing training apparatus and cheaper costs (versus starting up a domestic training apparatus) for training said nascent Chinese pilots so it sends them here (as well as the US in even larger numbers). FTUs get contracts to train pilots, with said contracts having extremely tight timelines; which reward FTUs that graduate classes ahead of schedule and penalize them if they graduate behind schedule. Sounds like pretty standard crony capitalism to me.

[More-rudder!]

It would be interesting to hear about the circuit-training limits in other urban areas such as Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto and Montreal. Is anyone aware what are NavCanada's limits in these areas?

[digits_]

It would be interesting to hear about the circuit-training limits in other urban areas such as Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto and Montreal. Is anyone aware what are NavCanada's limits in these areas?

Winnipeg frequently has a NOTAM out that prohibits all VFR traffic in the zone, except for traffic with destination CYWG.
However, you can then file an IFR flight plan to practice IFR approaches, and they'll ask you to cancel IFR before entering the zone so you can do you IFR approaches VFR. Which they then allow.

[rookiepilot]

It would be interesting to hear about the circuit-training limits in other urban areas such as Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Toronto and Montreal. Is anyone aware what are NavCanada's limits in these areas?

Winnipeg frequently has a NOTAM out that prohibits all VFR traffic in the zone, except for traffic with destination CYWG.
However, you can then file an IFR flight plan to practice IFR approaches, and they'll ask you to cancel IFR before entering the zone so you can do you IFR approaches VFR. Which they then allow.

Cause we all know YWG is so much busier than places like YYZ, NYC and DCA, you know…..where you can actually fly.