Schedule satisfaction

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Bede
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Schedule satisfaction

Post by Bede »

I'm curious, generally speaking, how high in relative seniority would a pilot have to be to get 80% of their bids awarded for their monthly schedule? How about 50%? 25%?

Obviously the #1 guy get 100% of what they ask for, but what about someone 25%, 50%, or 75% down the list?

Just need rough guesses.
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Sharklasers
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by Sharklasers »

Ha hahahahahahhahahahahahahhahaha.

Satisfaction?

The wide bodies have no cap on days worked. Some guys do 8 days a month and some guys do 21 days a month.
Generally all but the top third are unhappy in one way or any other.

The narrow body is worse.

Let me introduce you to the concept of of “unstacking”

On fleets with a 16 day cap the company is obligated to build as many blocks as possible. It build blocks from the top down based on what guys bid and when it gets far enough down the list that it can no longer build blocks that fit the DBM and respects the cap on days worked (once it gets to the garbage low credit flying) it starts working it’s way back up the list substituting flying off senior lines and kicking it down the list to make more blocks. One some fleets the unstacking is so far up the list that #1 doesn’t get what they want. It’s socialization without any of the benefits. In terms of credit and days worked the blocks are functionally the same from 70% to about 10% of the list.

If we had higher DPGs and trip rigs it would incentivize the company to at least build more efficient pairings and we could get the days down that way but sadly westjet just inked a deal for our current rigs and dpgs that as I understand only kick in in 2026.
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Bede
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by Bede »

So is there even anybody who can say, "I get 80% of the flying I ask for?"
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Sharklasers
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by Sharklasers »

Top guys on all the fleets probably get 80% of what they want.
After that guys can really only hope for the days off they want.
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Rooster69
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by Rooster69 »

There is no ‘satisfaction’ score using PBS.


The current version of PBS allows the aforementioned ‘unstacking’. It is a real dogs breakfast . A more senior pilot could ask for days 1,2,3 off and for pairings A,B,C only to see a more junior pilot, who did not ask for any of those days off nor those pairings, awarded the very days and pairings off. Bloody moronic!

Maybe the top 15% are happy, but I doubt that.
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sstaurus
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by sstaurus »

So its been established that seniority scheduling pretty much sucks for everyone but the top 10%. Now that the demographics of AC are changing, could there ever be enough appetite to make the change to social bidding? We know everyone loved LOU74 (and not just for the pay).
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Crewbunk
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by Crewbunk »

The block “unstacking” was a very slow evolution, reducing rights of pilots to where it is today.

I’ll give you an example. Say a blocking window of 78-83 hours. The system starts building blocks from top to bottom, using preferences of the bidder. When that window is met, the block is awarded and goes to the next junior. This continues until the system can no longer build blocks with what is left.

The award process stops. All the rest are on reserve. The unawarded flying goes into “open flying”.

This started the concept introduced by a contract change, (approved by ACPA) of “Does a Junior pilot’s right to a block, avoiding reserve, trump a senior pilot’s right to preferred flying?” What the system would then do, is remove higher time flying from those senior and exchange it with what is on the bottom. It continues doing that from bottom to top, until there is less than 83 hours left to award.

Then, those Junior are on reserve, the less than 83 hours goes into open flying. They termed this “block unstacking”.

To give you an idea of numbers; before unstacking, you might have 85 blocks built, 20 pilots left on reserve, 500 hours left unassigned. With unstacking you might have 95 blocks built, 10 pilots on reserve, with 50 hours left unassigned.

The crew schedulers preferred this, as it made far less work for them. Senior pilots hated it as they lost good flying. Junior pilots loved it as they got to share good flying and weren’t on reserve.

Air Canada loves it because it gives them more control. With so much flying left unassigned before, it gave the pilots too much control.

The “cost” is generally the same either way.

So …. with a more powerful union, what does the scheduling committee do? You can poll the masses, but you know how that would go. Senior guys want one way, Junior guys, the other.

Socialized bidding affords junior pilots a better schedule early in their career. But …. Then they don’t get that jammy flying when they are senior. When I was a senior A320 Captain, I was flying 7 days a month. A BGI turn every Thursday, 3 SFO turns on Tuesdays. The junior pilots were flying the maximum 16 days a month. With a steady blend and improvement from bottom to top.

That improvement is no longer possible as everyone is flying 16 days a month.
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RippleRock
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by RippleRock »

Crewbunk wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 6:05 am The block “unstacking” was a very slow evolution, reducing rights of pilots to where it is today.

I’ll give you an example. Say a blocking window of 78-83 hours. The system starts building blocks from top to bottom, using preferences of the bidder. When that window is met, the block is awarded and goes to the next junior. This continues until the system can no longer build blocks with what is left.

The award process stops. All the rest are on reserve. The unawarded flying goes into “open flying”.

This started the concept introduced by a contract change, (approved by ACPA) of “Does a Junior pilot’s right to a block, avoiding reserve, trump a senior pilot’s right to preferred flying?” What the system would then do, is remove higher time flying from those senior and exchange it with what is on the bottom. It continues doing that from bottom to top, until there is less than 83 hours left to award.

Then, those Junior are on reserve, the less than 83 hours goes into open flying. They termed this “block unstacking”.

To give you an idea of numbers; before unstacking, you might have 85 blocks built, 20 pilots left on reserve, 500 hours left unassigned. With unstacking you might have 95 blocks built, 10 pilots on reserve, with 50 hours left unassigned.

The crew schedulers preferred this, as it made far less work for them. Senior pilots hated it as they lost good flying. Junior pilots loved it as they got to share good flying and weren’t on reserve.

Air Canada loves it because it gives them more control. With so much flying left unassigned before, it gave the pilots too much control.

The “cost” is generally the same either way.

So …. with a more powerful union, what does the scheduling committee do? You can poll the masses, but you know how that would go. Senior guys want one way, Junior guys, the other.

Socialized bidding affords junior pilots a better schedule early in their career. But …. Then they don’t get that jammy flying when they are senior. When I was a senior A320 Captain, I was flying 7 days a month. A BGI turn every Thursday, 3 SFO turns on Tuesdays. The junior pilots were flying the maximum 16 days a month. With a steady blend and improvement from bottom to top.

That improvement is no longer possible as everyone is flying 16 days a month.
In other words, another failure to protect Constitution by the "giving tree" known as ACPA.

You could write a novel about their failings. We will be dealing with the ramifications of their complete meltdown as a Union for decades yet.
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sstaurus
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by sstaurus »

Crewbunk wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 6:05 am Socialized bidding affords junior pilots a better schedule early in their career. But …. Then they don’t get that jammy flying when they are senior.
I see both sides, but I find it interesting this is still seen as more preferable. When the kids are young, the days matter. When you're an old fart, do the dates matter so much? Maybe we'd have a few less divorces in the industry...
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TheAlcalde
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by TheAlcalde »

sstaurus wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:58 am
Crewbunk wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 6:05 am Socialized bidding affords junior pilots a better schedule early in their career. But …. Then they don’t get that jammy flying when they are senior.
I see both sides, but I find it interesting this is still seen as more preferable. When the kids are young, the days matter. When you're an old fart, do the dates matter so much? Maybe we'd have a few less divorces in the industry...

If you want the schedule, you can bid your position accordingly. We have guys taking lower paying positions and still having garbage blocks because of unsticking. Theres RPs working 18+ days before training.
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sstaurus
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by sstaurus »

Fair enough, ideally the pairing construction will be fixed so that those who stay senior on the FO side, get more benefit rather than just the very top of the list. I think a calendar day min credit would be a good place to start!
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bcflyer
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by bcflyer »

Schedule satisfaction means different things to different people. If your days off are the most important thing to you, then one could say as long as you get all your days off you are 100% satisfied. Conversely if you only want long layovers in your fav spot one could say you are 100% satisfied if that’s all you get. That’s the great part about AC. There are lots of options depending on what you want.

I’m a NB captain and I’ve had great schedules from about 50% and up. (All my days off) Yes there is the occasional month where things don’t go quite as planned but they are the exception to the rule. I’m now quite senior and always get my days off. (Which is what I bid) I generally work a couple more days than my WB friends but I’m not exhausted when I get home so in reality it’s a push.
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by flying4dollars »

bcflyer wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:18 am Schedule satisfaction means different things to different people. If your days off are the most important thing to you, then one could say as long as you get all your days off you are 100% satisfied. Conversely if you only want long layovers in your fav spot one could say you are 100% satisfied if that’s all you get. That’s the great part about AC. There are lots of options depending on what you want.

I’m a NB captain and I’ve had great schedules from about 50% and up. (All my days off) Yes there is the occasional month where things don’t go quite as planned but they are the exception to the rule. I’m now quite senior and always get my days off. (Which is what I bid) I generally work a couple more days than my WB friends but I’m not exhausted when I get home so in reality it’s a push.
This
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Curiousflyer
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by Curiousflyer »

Now that the reserve rules are improved for days off and lifestyle, it should make it significantly easier for the union to achieve language that promotes more reserve pilots and more open time allowing a better schedule for senior pilots.

With the computing power we have these days, the industry seems overdue for a massive change in the way pilot schedules are produced. Instead of publishing pairings and having pilots bid on them, why not bid first and have pairings generated based off of your bid?
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Crewbunk
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by Crewbunk »

Curiousflyer wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 6:19 am Instead of publishing pairings and having pilots bid on them, why not bid first and have pairings generated based off of your bid?
Most of Air Canada’s pilots satisfaction travails could be solved if pilots themselves were involved in the pairing generation process. Air Canada is the first airline at which I’ve flown where pilots have absolutely no say in the process.

My previous two airlines generated pairings by union committee.

Pilots would give us preferences and we would accommodate as best we could. The only restriction was that it could cost the company no extra. It was fascinating working with the pairing generation program and watch it move flying around making those preferences.

For example. On narrow body aircraft, there is a strong preference for single day pairings. I jigged the program to force as many as possible without adding costs. (The costs it accounts are pay, DH credits, hotel/expenses, total hour guarantees and duty day guarantees, etc).

Then at AC, I presented it to the VP of Flight Ops and was astounded at the answer. When I told him that on the A320 (for example) I could see 50% of the pairings being single day. He said “yeah, you guys would love that, wouldn’t you?” “Yes” I answered “yes, we would. Why is that a problem?

So satisfaction could be better. But those smarter than I, have decided it shouldn’t be.
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TheAlcalde
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by TheAlcalde »

Crewbunk wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 8:16 am
Curiousflyer wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 6:19 am Instead of publishing pairings and having pilots bid on them, why not bid first and have pairings generated based off of your bid?
Most of Air Canada’s pilots satisfaction travails could be solved if pilots themselves were involved in the pairing generation process. Air Canada is the first airline at which I’ve flown where pilots have absolutely no say in the process.

My previous two airlines generated pairings by union committee.

Pilots would give us preferences and we would accommodate as best we could. The only restriction was that it could cost the company no extra. It was fascinating working with the pairing generation program and watch it move flying around making those preferences.

For example. On narrow body aircraft, there is a strong preference for single day pairings. I jigged the program to force as many as possible without adding costs. (The costs it accounts are pay, DH credits, hotel/expenses, total hour guarantees and duty day guarantees, etc).

Then at AC, I presented it to the VP of Flight Ops and was astounded at the answer. When I told him that on the A320 (for example) I could see 50% of the pairings being single day. He said “yeah, you guys would love that, wouldn’t you?” “Yes” I answered “yes, we would. Why is that a problem?

So satisfaction could be better. But those smarter than I, have decided it shouldn’t be.
Which VP was this? Not current one is it?
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flyingcanuck
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by flyingcanuck »

Crewbunk wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 8:16 am
Curiousflyer wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2023 6:19 am Instead of publishing pairings and having pilots bid on them, why not bid first and have pairings generated based off of your bid?
Most of Air Canada’s pilots satisfaction travails could be solved if pilots themselves were involved in the pairing generation process. Air Canada is the first airline at which I’ve flown where pilots have absolutely no say in the process.

My previous two airlines generated pairings by union committee.

Pilots would give us preferences and we would accommodate as best we could. The only restriction was that it could cost the company no extra. It was fascinating working with the pairing generation program and watch it move flying around making those preferences.

For example. On narrow body aircraft, there is a strong preference for single day pairings. I jigged the program to force as many as possible without adding costs. (The costs it accounts are pay, DH credits, hotel/expenses, total hour guarantees and duty day guarantees, etc).

Then at AC, I presented it to the VP of Flight Ops and was astounded at the answer. When I told him that on the A320 (for example) I could see 50% of the pairings being single day. He said “yeah, you guys would love that, wouldn’t you?” “Yes” I answered “yes, we would. Why is that a problem?

So satisfaction could be better. But those smarter than I, have decided it shouldn’t be.
should definitely make this info available to the pilot group instead of avcanada.. just another thing they screw us with
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altiplano
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by altiplano »

I'm getting up there in seniority on the NB side and still working max days.

Inefficient 16 day months, plus training some months, plus maybe a travel day for training... I mostly do the type of flying I like, and often get most of my days off requested, but It's too much. I won't be satisfied until we knock that down to maybe 12-13 days most months with training included when required.
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Crewbunk
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by Crewbunk »

No it wasn’t the current VP of flight ops. That’s how long I’ve been battling with this.

I did make it known to the pilot group, and ACPA. Everyone was more than interested, especially as I volunteered to chair the committee. I had a lot of experience using the same program Air Canada was using to generate pairings.

It became very clear that in no way did AC want pilots involved in the pairing generation process. Fair ball. Their game, their rules. I have my own theories why, which are irrelevant on a public forum. Eventually I gave up.

I do chuckle now though, that one of the managers who was vehemently blocking my way is now flying a crappy block … by his own design.
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by Dockjock »

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Torontomaplelaughs
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Re: Schedule satisfaction

Post by Torontomaplelaughs »

American Airlines pilots have guarantees in their contract to ensure a certain % of single day pairings for example and limit the % of longer 4 day pairings

Contractual limits are key to avoid the dumpster fire ACPA has left
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