FSS vs VFR Roles, Responsibilities, Paychecks

[SquearlFSS]

Hello all,

new to posting but here it goes...

I just recently ( 6 months ago ) checked out as an FSS at Timmins, ON. (CYTS). My job doesnt ever feel that much like work to me, which I'm sure will change in time, and even though sometimes I salivate watching the G4's climb out, I know that this is a stable enough job with good benefits and pension.

As to IFR controllers my hat goes off to them because they do have a difficult job ...(sometimes... in some sectors), and being that they are licensed and liable they do deserve a bigger pay check. But for me FSS is where it is at right now. As long as I follow MANOPS and do my job, the company (NAV CANADA) for the most part will cover my ass. Even if I dont completely do things by the book I am pretty safe.

In the future though I hope to seen a lessening of the gap between VFR and FSS salaries and responsibilities though. I think that an actual combining of these two jobs wouldnt be that crazy of an idea. As long as an FSS has the tools (Nards, 360/180 Cab, Schedueled relief for breaks) it is proven we can do upwards of 70-80k movements no sweat.

Most grade 1,2 towers could in my opinion be run by FSS, cutting costs drastically which would then be passed onto the users in effect decreasing operating costs and allowing more growth in the industry.

In any case I believe this is an interesting subject, and a subject of quite some debate at Timmins FSS. Of course we are a little jaded seeing as we feel like we make less and do more than "some" of our VFR counterparts (I wish I could sleep for half of my midnight shifts)

Alright hopefully this sparks some good debate, not too heated hopefully but you never know.

[ahramin]

Certainly there are some sites in Canada that should be looked at in regards to whether a tower or FSS would be better. With the oilpatch going crazy in alberta the FSS are definitely in way over their heads at certain sites. It would do a lot to improve safety and drastically improve efficiency.

At the sites where the FSS is not in over its head, and you would not want a tower, the last thing you want is to "combine the two". The worst thing a FSS can do is try to control traffic. They don't have the training and they don't have the frequencies. What results is a decrease in safety and efficiency because FSS is taking up most of the air time, to no benefit.

It would be nice to replace the high movement FSSs with towers, and hopefully a few of them will be. What we definitely don't want is to replace towers with FSSs.

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[SquearlFSS]

What about the towers like Gander, Sudbury, doing 35k movements or less. These low movement tower sites need controllers who make more than FSS plus contract weather observing. Replacing them with FSS would save tonnes of money.

As to the efficiency I cant speak to that, as I have never really observed a VFR tower in operations. In any case this is why I think that the FSS/VFR careers could be merged into one. I dont think it would be hard at all to re train FSS for some minimal VFR control aspects . Remote Advisory Sites would have to be done away with, but this would not make me sad one bit.

[lilfssister]

As to the efficiency I cant speak to that, as I have never really observed a VFR tower in operations. In any case this is why I think that the FSS/VFR careers could be merged into one. I dont think it would be hard at all to re train FSS for some minimal VFR control aspects. Remote Advisory Sites would have to be done away with, but this would not make me sad one bit.

Huh?

You aren't going to endear yourself to anyone in the ATC world with statements like that, and nothing to back it up.

[lilfssister]

What we definitely don't want is to replace towers with FSSs.

Already been done, my friend, over the past 10-20 years?
Not many towers left that are under the magic number of movements to retain tower service.

[ahramin]

Yes it has been done. Right here at home much to our detriment. What is the magic number of movements? I would guess that we are back on the high side of it now. I should qualify that statement though. Obviously it is possible for the level of traffic at an airport to drop to the point where a tower is no longer adding anything. However i do not know of a single towered airport left today which could be served anywhere near as well by a FSS.

Is there any work being done at Nav Canada to see if a control tower should be added anywhere? Or even a FSS? Have any new control towers been created in the last 20 years? Or is it only down from here?

[lilfssister]

http://www.navcanada.ca/NavCanada.asp?L ... efault.xml

That's what was studied, discussed and has started to be implemented.

Not sure of the magic number? Might be in there somewhere. I'm thinking 60,000 movements per year, but could be wrong.

The URL won't post correctly, have to cut and paste.

[hydro]

Is there any work being done at Nav Canada to see if a control tower should be added anywhere? Or even a FSS?

As part of Level Of Service link, NavCanada looked into opening a few more FSS sites in Sarnia (which didn't have any ATS service) and changing RAAS in places like Pickle Lake, Red Lake, Dryden to FSS/AAS. Afer their study, the only addition was to put in a RAAS for Sarnia. (I don't recall what changes were planned for non-Ontario locations).

About a year before this, NavCanada was looking into putting an ATC facility in Brampton. This is second hand, but I heard the people at Brampton politely told them to screw off, and leave brampton alone. Even if they had the support, I'm not so sure NavCanada would have gone through with it though. Most likely not enough IFR (or more specifically sched traffic to warrant it).

Rumor is that YMM comes up now and again as a site that may go back to ATC, but I'm not sure if thats just the wish of the users, or if the HQ people are tossing the idea around in Ottawa.

hydro

[hydro]

[quote="lilfssister"]

Not sure of the magic number? Might be in there somewhere. I'm thinking 60,000 movements per year, but could be wrong.

[quote]

I don't have it handy, but I recall reading a NavCanada (or possible an old Transport Canada) document awhile back that had guidelines for consideration of a new FSS or ATC unit.

I recall ATC criteria, was 60,000 movements Or 40,000 movements (of which aprx 20,000(?) were IFR air carrier movements, or something to that effect.

FSS would have been 40000 movements, or as low as 20,000 movements (of which aprx half or so were IFR air carrier movements).

hydro

[grimey]

Not sure of the magic number? Might be in there somewhere. I'm thinking 60,000 movements per year, but could be wrong.

That was what I remembered it being, maybe 65,000. It SHOULD be more complicated than the total number of movements, though. 50,000 locals a year, spread out through the year, isn't too hard to deal with (roger, report downwind... roger report final... traffic's a 172 , 12 oclock, 2 miles, doing circuits same as you). 50,000+ itinerants could be an extremely high workload for an FSS, especially if there's a rush in one part of the year. 40 locals in an hour is one guy doing circuits. 20 itinerants usually ends up being 5 aircraft arriving and 5 departing, all at once, twice per hour.

edit: it's possible they do something similar to what hydro suggested, I don't know for sure.

[cyyz]

ahramin said it best

It would be nice to replace the high movement FSSs with towers, and hopefully a few of them will be. What we definitely don't want is to replace towers with FSSs.

But the original post just seems like a rant about FSS wages vs low traffic VFR towers....

[jonathan_tcu]

I monitor Timmins FSS myself and really wonder about Moosonee, which I don't hear on their RCO 122.5, which probably explains why Timmins mans freq 122.5 7a to 9p daily instead of 24/7. Look at it this way, Timmins FSS used to man Amos Que, Kapuskasing (CYYU) and Earlton (CYXR) up until a couple of years ago. Recently, CYQA (Muskoka) is manned from Timmins, all based on workload between Timmins and London FSS. I don't know Muskoka's traffic figures.

Next issue was converting/merging FSS with VFR, North Bay's current FSS used to be a tower for VFR until god knows when. I contacted North Bay's FSS airport manager who told me the downgrade from VFR/Tower in North Bay's title to FSS or Airport Advisory Service, still only operations from 6:30 a to 10:30 p local 7 days a week, is simply due to less traffic movements.

I'm just learning and hopeful to jump into the FSS seat, regardless of the salary and high or low workload, but merging to the two together, wouldn't that require shuffling around employees and restructuring the overall operations?

[bij]

Just curious, how/why are you monitoring YTS FSS? And I think you may have Amos confused with the Attawapiskat DRCO, but I may be wrong.

(this is my first posting and it feels oh so lame )

[jonathan_tcu]

I 've been monitoring Timmins FSS for weather info and just to learn how traffic is manned in the control zone, so I can get the job in a couple of years from now. And Amos is a small city in Quebec. Attawapiskat I believe is uncontrolled airspace, where Toronto center requires a 'downcall' via 1-888 # or London RCO 126.7. Timmins airport is a good 5 to 10 min travel north of the city where most aircraft report 6 nm south which is our downtown. Weather is significant in that 6 mile line too.

[lilfssister]

Next issue was converting/merging FSS with VFR, North Bay's current FSS used to be a tower for VFR until god knows when. I contacted North Bay's FSS airport manager who told me the downgrade from VFR/Tower in North Bay's title to FSS or Airport Advisory Service, still only operations from 6:30 a to 10:30 p local 7 days a week, is simply due to less traffic movements.

I'm just learning and hopeful to jump into the FSS seat, regardless of the salary and high or low workload, but merging to the two together, wouldn't that require shuffling around employees and restructuring the overall operations?

And YOU are not going to endear yourself to anyone in the FSS world using words like "downgrade" versus "changing from to control to advisory service"!

[bij]

And Amos is a small city in Quebec. Attawapiskat I believe is uncontrolled airspace,

Sorry, I am aware of the location of Amos, but I doubt that YTS ever had an RCO there. They did however have a dial up RCO up until London took over the others as well.

[lilfssister]

I monitor Timmins FSS myself and really wonder about Moosonee, which I don't hear on their RCO 122.5, which probably explains why Timmins mans freq 122.5 7a to 9p daily instead of 24/7. Look at it this way, Timmins FSS used to man Amos Que, Kapuskasing (CYYU) and Earlton (CYXR) up until a couple of years ago. Recently, CYQA (Muskoka) is manned from Timmins, all based on workload between Timmins and London FSS. I don't know Muskoka's traffic figures.

Are there no women in YTS FSS?

[bij]

as well...how much weather do you hear on an MF? If you were only interested in weather you would be listening to the ATIS freq and not the MF. I appreciate that you might be interested in listening, but I highly doubt it is for weather. (like I said, unless you are listening to ATIS )

[lilfssister]

I 've been monitoring Timmins FSS for weather info and just to learn how traffic is manned in the control zone, so I can get the job in a couple of years from now.

Don't take this the wrong way, but from reading all the posts you make, this monitoring hasn't taught you very much. And, what you hear on the scanner isn't going to get you into the job a few years from now. The only way to get the job is to take the aptitude test (which has pretty much nothing to do with what you hear on the radio) and pass it with a high enough mark to get interviewed, pass the interview, pass the training course in Cornwall, then pass the on-the-job training.

It's nice that you're enthusiastic about maybe getting into the business, but you'd be better off reading FTGU, CARs, AIP, and AIM if you want to learn about it.

edited to add: And maybe that's Ameson, not Amos???

[yeah yeah]

Rumor is that YMM comes up now and again as a site that may go back to ATC, but I'm not sure if thats just the wish of the users, or if the HQ people are tossing the idea around in Ottawa.

hydro[/quote]

Given the high cost of living in McMurray, who would want to work there as ATC? or FSS?

[FamilyGuy]

The replacement of TWR's with FSS is an ongoing issue. There is no substitute to a TWR, no matter what FSS wants or thinks.

The scariest operation I ever had to endure was at YQF (LONG time ago)with an operator who thought he was a "controller". I was young and stupid enough to think he was a "controller" and actually followed his "instructions"! Only did that once - never again...NEVER!!!

Best FSS service I ever received was at YYN one dark and stormy night running +TS. Guy did a SUPER job! Not enough beer to thank him!

The "license" makes a difference. FSS does good work - but it isn't the same thing...cannot ever be.

[jonathan_tcu]

I have attempted that test a few years ago, didn't pass, among the other 2/3 who were not expected to pass either. When I monitor the FSS, it's just to keep track of what's going on at the airport and getting pilots' reports of any significant weather and hearing the way they co ordinate their intentions. I do plan on re attempt the test in a year or so from now.

There are 3 women who work at Timmins FSS, one who I met 10 years ago when I visited the site. North Bay doesn't have any women, as far as I know from 2 years ago when I left the city.

One more note too, if Timmins ever upgraded from FSS to VFR operations, I assume the site would have to open a view to the southeast of the airport, which they don't have unless they step outside onto the roof. Wouldn't a full 360 view be needed?

[bij]

To get back to squearl's post, I think it was more about the fact that busier FSS sites are handling the numbers of a tower, with there hands tied, a blind fold on, an empty stomach, and a full bladder, for less money.

[SquearlFSS]

Bij thank you that is what I was getting too,

I am a flight service at timmins CYTS, and I can tell you we do our fair share of sitting around at slow times (overnight, weekends) but it is usually steady because timmins slow periods corespond with muskoka's CYQA busy periods.

In any case, after talking with co-workers we couldnt think of any reason why an FSS would be any more ineffiecient for the operators compared to towers.

and where our salaries are topping out at 65k some tower controllers are making 5-10k more for less work, especially with their contract giving them double time overtime and most towers having scheduled sick leave/overtime programs, they are making much more than us.

I will agree that some towers you deserve that, Pearson, Trudeau, Vancouver, for example. But alot of the other towers have the numbers because they have 2-3 flight schools, and more private traffic giving them the circuit traffic movement, and I can tell you, a monkey can be trained to deal with circuit traffic.

Anyways, I guess I really shouldnt be complaining, I have a job I enjoy and get paid fairley well to site in an airconditioned room. I do have to go outside in thunderstorms, but hey that is kinda of cool too.

there are some pretty cool posts going on here, but in the begingin I was just actually talking about the gap between controllers and FSS

[SquearlFSS]

Hey another thing for Jonathon Towering Cumulus

It is true that listening to the freq's arent going to give you much help on the apptitude test, I wrote it in Nov. 04 had an interview two weeks later and was on the jun 05 Fss course.

the test as you know is memorization skills, spacial reasoning, math, reading and comprehension and the personality test.

I hear that there is a study book for the equivalent test in the states that is pretty good, you could probably find it on amazon or something.

when you get through the testings,interviews, and being loaded on a course, that is when the aviaition experience and listening to your scanner will help you.

good luck to you but remeber Timmins is actually a pretty decent posting, I was lucky to get here right out of NCTI, so I wouldnt get your hopes up for getting back here for sure.