Poll - September 2023 - Hours at work pilot vs. 9-5 worker

[CanadaAir]

There are 20 working days in September for a 9-5 worker.
Weekend and holidays off.

For an 8 hour work day, thats 160 hours of working in September.

There’re pilots complaining about working 18 days or more away

Overall, how many hours were you at work flying or non-flying, on layover, deadheading, in a bunk, commuting, training & on reserve this September?

If you don't know for September, use August.

[TheAlcalde]

TAFB is a better indicator.

You can do 4-5 europes in an 85 hour block month. About 45-50 hours TAFB.

Let’s be conservative and say you only did 5 Londons at 40 hours from when you check in at planning, to when you walk off the plane = 200 hours at work. I don’t care that there’s a layover in there. It’s time that I’ve given to the company, pulling all-nighters and sleeping in the Danubius.

Even if it’s a good month and you’re on 3 ultra longs, you’re still gone 150hrs.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Exactly. Let’s compare working hours for the 9-5 guy vs working hours (TAFB) for the pilot if you want an apples to apples comparison. None of this “working days” crap.

[CanadaAir]

Exactly. Let’s compare working hours for the 9-5 guy vs working hours (TAFB) for the pilot if you want an apples to apples comparison. None of this “working days” crap.

Noted

[CanadaAir]

TAFB is a better indicator.

You can do 4-5 europes in an 85 hour block month. About 45-50 hours TAFB.

Let’s be conservative and say you only did 5 Londons at 40 hours from when you check in at planning, to when you walk off the plane = 200 hours at work. I don’t care that there’s a layover in there. It’s time that I’ve given to the company, pulling all-nighters and sleeping in the Danubius.

Even if it’s a good month and you’re on 3 ultra longs, you’re still gone 150hrs.

Poll updated

[cdnavater]

Does TTAFH count, as a commuter my 16 days is often 18 days away from home and when I am home I spend many hours catching up on yard work.
If I made Porter money I could hire a company for that!

[co-joe]

It depends, are you asking credit hours for which I was paid, or actual hours that I was at the airport,going through security, waiting for arrivals, briefing the crew, doing pre-flight, post flight, and again walking through the airport doing all the other things we don't get paid for? Honest question.

[goldeneagle]

Does TTAFH count, as a commuter my 16 days is often 18 days away from home and when I am home I spend many hours catching up on yard work.
If I made Porter money I could hire a company for that!

If you want to count the commute to/from work as 'working hours' for you, then add another 2 to 3 unpaid hours to the day for your average 9-5 office worker, that 40 hour week just became 50+ for an apples to apples comparison. They too have to get to/from work, often an hour or more each way.

[cdnavater]

Does TTAFH count, as a commuter my 16 days is often 18 days away from home and when I am home I spend many hours catching up on yard work.
If I made Porter money I could hire a company for that!

If you want to count the commute to/from work as 'working hours' for you, then add another 2 to 3 unpaid hours to the day for your average 9-5 office worker, that 40 hour week just became 50+ for an apples to apples comparison. They too have to get to/from work, often an hour or more each way.

I really wasn’t including my commute time, I was just saying that I would love to be in my own bed every night, not a flop house bed. However, this is a personal choice to commute so I don’t really get to consider it time at work. As for how many hours pilots work, a four day pairing is all work, so time away from base is absolutely included. If you don’t have the seniority to do single day turns and be in your own bed, then it’s company time, even if you are at the hotel for 16 hours.
I’ve had people at the airport ask me where I’m headed to and when I tell them Sam Diego or Sam Fran, they always say something like, that sounds great. My response is, not really, it’s just another hotel in a difficult city, could easily be Yellowknife.

[CanadaAir]

Does TTAFH count, as a commuter my 16 days is often 18 days away from home and when I am home I spend many hours catching up on yard work.
If I made Porter money I could hire a company for that!

If you want to count the commute to/from work as 'working hours' for you, then add another 2 to 3 unpaid hours to the day for your average 9-5 office worker, that 40 hour week just became 50+ for an apples to apples comparison. They too have to get to/from work, often an hour or more each way.

Commuting time is valid for pilots.

Like 9-5, pilots have to drive drive to work/airport. Commuting time which should not be counted.

But, the extra 90 minutes waiting for your first flight, then the next flight since you didn't get on the first, then the 3 hour flight isn't something the average 9-5 has to do to get to work. Count this as extra time at work in the poll.

[CanadaAir]

Does TTAFH count, as a commuter my 16 days is often 18 days away from home and when I am home I spend many hours catching up on yard work.
If I made Porter money I could hire a company for that!

Commuting time is valid for pilots.

Like 9-5, pilots have to drive drive to work/airport. Commuting time which should not be counted.

But, the extra 90 minutes waiting for your first flight, then the next flight since you didn't get on the first, then the 3 hour flight isn't something the average 9-5 has to do to get to work. Count this as extra time at work in the poll.

[NotDirty!]

For September my block is 13 days, with a total of 219h34m TAFB. I get paid 70h45 credit, with 63h58 actual planned flying.

August was a 16 day block, for 245h33 TAFB, 74h30 credit, 56h29 block. I also did 2 sim sessions, and one day of in-class recurrent training. I slept in my own bed 11 nights.

nb: August 31st is part of the September block month, and I flew that day… so 20 days of work in what most people would consider “August”.

[Ash Ketchum]

I just bid reserve and pass on everything. Probably work like 8-10 days/month. Also use all my sick days. Plenty of time for my second job.

[JBI]

There are 20 working days in September for a 9-5 worker.
Weekend and holidays off.

For an 8 hour work day, thats 160 hours of working in September.

There’re pilots complaining about working 18 days or more away

Overall, how many hours were you at work flying or non-flying, on layover, deadheading, in a bunk, commuting, training & on reserve this September?

If you don't know for September, use August.

The 9-5 worker is a bit of a myth. I mean don't get me wrong, they exist, but I'd argue that the vast majority of jobs that pay higher than the Canadian Median Income of $68,400 require more time commitments than 9-5 M-F and weekends off.

My office job prior to returning to flying paid 6 figures, but I worked on average M-F 8am-7pm with usually a few hours on the weekends. Plus that also included probably 2-5 work trips a year of 1 to 4 overnights and in addition, probably 10 or so after-hours mandatory business development "fun" items. I would say that based on the above, I would average 260-300 hours of "work" a month.

When asked about my previous job, I'll often explain that sure I slept at in my own bed a little more than I do as a pilot, but I'm home during waking hours way more as a pilot than I was at my office job. And, at my office job, my job wasn't done when I left the office. I would often have to answer client e-mails late at night and, more importantly for this discussion, I was constantly thinking about my different files, strategy and hours. Even on my honeymoon in Italy I had to do a few hours of work.

At my 705 airline job I can bid for single days to actually keep my TAFB quite low, but I generally really enjoy layovers. I have young kids and honestly, a few nights in a hotel each month to catch up on sleep is wonderful. Then being home on a Tuesday I can take the kids out for the day to give my wife some reprieve.

So, while it is definitely important to understand the sacrifices that can be required to be a pilot and not take those things for granted, I'd argue that for a lot of people, 9-5 isn't a solid comparator. Doctors/lawyers/business managers work way more than pilots. Police, Fire, Nurses all have demanding schedules with rotations of day shift/night shift flips. Teachers/Professors have office hours, teaching hours, marking time, research, PD development and then sports/clubs coaching. Realtors work weekends all the time.

Everyone is different, but I'll take my current airline schedule over my M-F+ office schedule any day.

[digits_]

Does TTAFH count, as a commuter my 16 days is often 18 days away from home and when I am home I spend many hours catching up on yard work.
If I made Porter money I could hire a company for that!

Commuting time is valid for pilots.

Like 9-5, pilots have to drive drive to work/airport. Commuting time which should not be counted.

But, the extra 90 minutes waiting for your first flight, then the next flight since you didn't get on the first, then the 3 hour flight isn't something the average 9-5 has to do to get to work. Count this as extra time at work in the poll.

For most pilots, commuting is a choice. A choice most 9 to 5 workers don't have. They have to move if they want to work at a specific company. Claiming commuting is work time goes a bit too far I would say.

[CanadaAir]

There are 20 working days in September for a 9-5 worker.
Weekend and holidays off.

For an 8 hour work day, thats 160 hours of working in September.

There’re pilots complaining about working 18 days or more away

Overall, how many hours were you at work flying or non-flying, on layover, deadheading, in a bunk, commuting, training & on reserve this September?

If you don't know for September, use August.

The 9-5 worker is a bit of a myth. I mean don't get me wrong, they exist, but I'd argue that the vast majority of jobs that pay higher than the Canadian Median Income of $68,400 require more time commitments than 9-5 M-F and weekends off.

My office job prior to returning to flying paid 6 figures, but I worked on average M-F 8am-7pm with usually a few hours on the weekends. Plus that also included probably 2-5 work trips a year of 1 to 4 overnights and in addition, probably 10 or so after-hours mandatory business development "fun" items. I would say that based on the above, I would average 260-300 hours of "work" a month.

When asked about my previous job, I'll often explain that sure I slept at in my own bed a little more than I do as a pilot, but I'm home during waking hours way more as a pilot than I was at my office job. And, at my office job, my job wasn't done when I left the office. I would often have to answer client e-mails late at night and, more importantly for this discussion, I was constantly thinking about my different files, strategy and hours. Even on my honeymoon in Italy I had to do a few hours of work.

At my 705 airline job I can bid for single days to actually keep my TAFB quite low, but I generally really enjoy layovers. I have young kids and honestly, a few nights in a hotel each month to catch up on sleep is wonderful. Then being home on a Tuesday I can take the kids out for the day to give my wife some reprieve.

So, while it is definitely important to understand the sacrifices that can be required to be a pilot and not take those things for granted, I'd argue that for a lot of people, 9-5 isn't a solid comparator. Doctors/lawyers/business managers work way more than pilots. Police, Fire, Nurses all have demanding schedules with rotations of day shift/night shift flips. Teachers/Professors have office hours, teaching hours, marking time, research, PD development and then sports/clubs coaching. Realtors work weekends all the time.

Everyone is different, but I'll take my current airline schedule over my M-F+ office schedule any day.

Doctor, lawyer, police, fire, nurse are paid for every hr worked & overtime rates when past normal.
To say pilots are similar, then every hr of duty in uniform should be paid 1 to 1.

Pilots don't have to ask for salary increases, negotiate for 1 hr of pay for every 1 hr on duty.
& negotiate for overtime pay starting at 120 duty hrs a month.

[JBI]

Doctor, lawyer, police, fire, nurse are paid for every hr worked & overtime rates when past normal.
To say pilots are similar, then every hr of duty in uniform should be paid 1 to 1.

Pilots don't have to ask for salary increases, negotiate for 1 hr of pay for every 1 hr on duty.
& negotiate for overtime pay starting at 120 duty hrs a month.

You clearly have no idea how doctors and lawyers are paid. That's ok, a lot of people don't.

When I practiced law I was paid a salary based on a certain number of billable and non-billable hours a year. I made $0 more if I went over those targets. I also did not get paid for my "Time Away From Home", if I was overnight for a court appearance in a different city I got $0 for staying in a hotel. I was not able to bill for the approximately 1 to 2 hours EACH day of administrative billing, file organization and general prep for practicing. I did way more "duty" as a lawyer that I did not get paid for than I do as a pilot.

My best friend is a doctor (her husband is a lawyer). They make great money, but make no mistake, they don't get paid for 1 hour on duty or time away from base. And your statement that they get overtime rates when past normal is laughable. My doctor friends has literally worked 3 days in a row without going home and didn't get a dollar extra.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for making sure pilots are compensated fairly. I helped bring in RIGs at my previous 705 operation, but you need to educate yourself on what the standards are for other professions.

[CanadaAir]

Doctor, lawyer, police, fire, nurse are paid for every hr worked & overtime rates when past normal.
To say pilots are similar, then every hr of duty in uniform should be paid 1 to 1.

Pilots don't have to ask for salary increases, negotiate for 1 hr of pay for every 1 hr on duty.
& negotiate for overtime pay starting at 120 duty hrs a month.

You clearly have no idea how doctors and lawyers are paid. That's ok, a lot of people don't.

When I practiced law I was paid a salary based on a certain number of billable and non-billable hours a year. I made $0 more if I went over those targets. I also did not get paid for my "Time Away From Home", if I was overnight for a court appearance in a different city I got $0 for staying in a hotel. I was not able to bill for the approximately 1 to 2 hours EACH day of administrative billing, file organization and general prep for practicing. I did way more "duty" as a lawyer that I did not get paid for than I do as a pilot.

My best friend is a doctor (her husband is a lawyer). They make great money, but make no mistake, they don't get paid for 1 hour on duty or time away from base. And your statement that they get overtime rates when past normal is laughable. My doctor friends has literally worked 3 days in a row without going home and didn't get a dollar extra.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for making sure pilots are compensated fairly. I helped bring in RIGs at my previous 705 operation, but you need to educate yourself on what the standards are for other professions.

Most workers are doing 1 to 1, + overtime.

Running a business, or a doctor or lawyer in private practice paid differently. It's private

Doctor at a hospital is paid 1 to 1.
Public service lawyer 1 to 1
Some are on salary. Then they work per the agreement, which isn't 1 to 1.

So some doctors & lawyers are paid 1 to 1, others not.

Pilots are not doctors or lawyers, & not on salary or running private practices.

[Bede]

Doctor, lawyer, police, fire, nurse are paid for every hr worked & overtime rates when past normal.
To say pilots are similar, then every hr of duty in uniform should be paid 1 to 1.

Lol. No. Doctors are on fee for service in most cases. They get paid for, let's say a procedure. Follow up, paperwork, etc. is "all baked in" for nothing extra. For physicians who are salaried, it's even worse: they get their salary in exchange for signing over their life for on-call. A friend of mine is a brain surgeon. He makes about 2x as much as I do (~$600k/yr). In exchange he works 80-110 hrs/week.

[Bede]

Doctor at a hospital is paid 1 to 1.
Public service lawyer 1 to 1
Some are on salary. Then they work per the agreement, which isn't 1 to 1.

So some doctors & lawyers are paid 1 to 1, others not.

Pilots are not doctors or lawyers, & not on salary or running private practices.

Do you realize how little "public service lawyers" get paid?

[CanadaAir]

Doctor at a hospital is paid 1 to 1.
Public service lawyer 1 to 1
Some are on salary. Then they work per the agreement, which isn't 1 to 1.

So some doctors & lawyers are paid 1 to 1, others not.

Pilots are not doctors or lawyers, & not on salary or running private practices.

Do you realize how little "public service lawyers" get paid?

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$247,337.65
Childrens Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$238,070.36
Client Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$233,643.06
Client Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$233,643.06
Client Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$233,643.06
Regional Client Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$233,643.06
Judicial Research Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$233,643.06
Judicial Research Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$233,643.06
Judicial Research Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$233,643.06
Judicial Research Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$221,948.69
Judicial Research Lawyer

Crown Agencies
$142,422.02
Legal Aid Ontario
Staff Lawyer/Avocat salarié

Crown Agencies
$142,422.02
Legal Aid Ontario
Staff Lawyer/Avocat salarié

Crown Agencies
$142,422.02
Legal Aid Ontario
Staff Lawyer/Avocate salariée

Crown Agencies
$142,422.02
Legal Aid Ontario
Staff Lawyer/Avocate salariée

Crown Agencies
$142,422.02
Legal Aid Ontario
Regional Staff Lawyer/Avocat gestionnaire régionale

Crown Agencies
$142,422.02
Legal Aid Ontario
Staff Lawyer, Criminal/Avocate salariée en droit criminel

[Bede]

Doctor at a hospital is paid 1 to 1.
Public service lawyer 1 to 1
Some are on salary. Then they work per the agreement, which isn't 1 to 1.

So some doctors & lawyers are paid 1 to 1, others not.

Pilots are not doctors or lawyers, & not on salary or running private practices.

Do you realize how little "public service lawyers" get paid?

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$247,337.65
Childrens Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$238,070.36
Client Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$233,643.06
Client Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$233,643.06
Client Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$233,643.06
Regional Client Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$233,643.06
Judicial Research Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$233,643.06
Judicial Research Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$233,643.06
Judicial Research Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$233,643.06
Judicial Research Lawyer

Government of Ontario – Ministries
$221,948.69
Judicial Research Lawyer

Crown Agencies
$142,422.02
Legal Aid Ontario
Staff Lawyer/Avocat salarié

Crown Agencies
$142,422.02
Legal Aid Ontario
Staff Lawyer/Avocat salarié

Crown Agencies
$142,422.02
Legal Aid Ontario
Staff Lawyer/Avocate salariée

Crown Agencies
$142,422.02
Legal Aid Ontario
Staff Lawyer/Avocate salariée

Crown Agencies
$142,422.02
Legal Aid Ontario
Regional Staff Lawyer/Avocat gestionnaire régionale

Crown Agencies
$142,422.02
Legal Aid Ontario
Staff Lawyer, Criminal/Avocate salariée en droit criminel

So less than a NB captain or FO at a major airline? They work on salary, not hourly.

[CanadaAir]

Doctor, lawyer, police, fire, nurse are paid for every hr worked & overtime rates when past normal.
To say pilots are similar, then every hr of duty in uniform should be paid 1 to 1.

Lol. No. Doctors are on fee for service in most cases. They get paid for, let's say a procedure. Follow up, paperwork, etc. is "all baked in" for nothing extra. For physicians who are salaried, it's even worse: they get their salary in exchange for signing over their life for on-call. A friend of mine is a brain surgeon. He makes about 2x as much as I do (~$600k/yr). In exchange he works 80-110 hrs/week.

Let's not use doctors and lawyers as comparisons then.

Most other workers, police, fire, paramedic, nurse, construction, retail, oil have 1 to 1 pay & overtime.


& thanks for your ALPA work, need others involved like you at all the airlines across the country

[Bede]

Let's not use doctors and lawyers as comparisons then.

Good idea.

Most other workers, police, fire, paramedic, nurse, construction, retail, oil have 1 to 1 pay & overtime.

I wouldn't use those either. I'd look at those that generate close to $10k/hr for their employers.

[JBI]

Doctor, lawyer, police, fire, nurse are paid for every hr worked & overtime rates when past normal.
To say pilots are similar, then every hr of duty in uniform should be paid 1 to 1.

Lol. No. Doctors are on fee for service in most cases. They get paid for, let's say a procedure. Follow up, paperwork, etc. is "all baked in" for nothing extra. For physicians who are salaried, it's even worse: they get their salary in exchange for signing over their life for on-call. A friend of mine is a brain surgeon. He makes about 2x as much as I do (~$600k/yr). In exchange he works 80-110 hrs/week.

Let's not use doctors and lawyers as comparisons then.

Most other workers, police, fire, paramedic, nurse, construction, retail, oil have 1 to 1 pay & overtime.


& thanks for your ALPA work, need others involved like you at all the airlines across the country

I've flown with a number of ex-police, paramedics, tradesmen, and oil workers. We've chatted lots about working conditions and there's a reason they're flying and not going back to those careers. The working conditions at the airline environment is generally significantly better than at those jobs.

I'm not exactly sure what the purpose of your posts are, and I don't necessarily disagree with you. Both Bede and I have worked for years with ALPA to help improve the working conditions for our pilots. There have already been some pretty great scheduling/pay improvements in the last 6 years and the ALPA pilot reps will continue to work to improve conditions cause there are still improvements to be made.

However, your approach hurts your (our) argument. You've started with false assumptions about other comparable careers (pay, entrance requirements, training etc.) and then try and make an argument that pilots should be comparable to those false assumptions. If Bede or I did that in front of an arbitrator we'd be laughed out of the room.

I'm not sure how far along you are in your aviation career or what your background is but you'll find that at the airline level, things are really good (doesn't mean they can't be better). Most importantly, there are many different options on how you can build your schedule. I have a number of friends who LOVE 1 day pairings. They bid destinations that are 4-5 hours each way and boom, they fly 8-12 days a month and are home every night. I have young kids at home (whom I love dearly) but having a few nights in a hotel each month for a full night's sleep is amazing. I choose to bid for those pairings and with RIGs, get paid for my time in a hotel or getting to explore a new city (cause that's what I like to do). I also get premium / overtime for a whole lot of different options (most of which I can choose to work or not). An aviation schedule isn't for everyone. Lots of divorces in aviation. But my wife understands the schedule and overall really enjoys it too. We had an awesome family day yesterday on a Tuesday afternoon - things were empty because most people were stuck in their office.