Newbie Pilot just received upfront training bond offer

[ZacharyA220]

Hey everyone,

I'd like to hear your honest opinion about something. I've been following this forum for a couple of years, and one thing that stands out is how training bonds, especially the upfront ones, are being portrayed. I agree it's not a good thing, but how can you convince someone in my position, and I'm sure many others with a fresh CPL (currently at 220TT, multi-IFR), that signing an upfront bond reimbursed in 2 years is a bad deal?

I understand that if we all refuse, this practice might fade away. However, the reality is that the entry-level pilot space is highly competitive. Not every new pilot checks this forum to understand how bad it can be. After sending out over 80 resumes and cover letters, it seems like there's no other option without knowing someone who knows someone.

I'm also starting this thread for fellow new pilots who, like me, feel anxious about signing an upfront bond. I want to know if those who did found it worth it or if they regretted the decision.

Please, don't roast me too hard!

[digits_]

The first question you need to ask: is the offer and the company legit? There are very few companies in Canada that stil do this. There are however a lot of international 'hiring brokers' that don't mind preying on the weak with misleading or simply nonexistent job offers with up front training costs.

Assuming it's legit, and you have the capability to pay for the training/bond, ask yourself: will this company still exist in a year? Often, but not always, a company needing money from employees (be it for training, expenses, etc) might be in financial trouble. Alternatively, they might just have gotten sick of pilots leaving the company after a few months. In that case, ask yourself: why did those people leave?

If you're comfortable with that, and if you can afford to lose the money, then you don't have to feel guilty to accept a job with an upfront bond at 200 hours. 200 hour pilots are not able to change the industry. You've got almost no leverage.

Bottom line, it sucks, it will likely be a crappy job, you'll likely want to (or maybe will be able to) leave before the bond is up. But you need to start somewhere.

Do share the name of the company though, so more experienced pilots can avoid the company. They do have some leverage.

[ZacharyA220]

The first question you need to ask: is the offer and the company legit? There are very few companies in Canada that stil do this. There are however a lot of international 'hiring brokers' that don't mind preying on the weak with misleading or simply nonexistent job offers with up front training costs.

Assuming it's legit, and you have the capability to pay for the training/bond, ask yourself: will this company still exist in a year? Often, but not always, a company needing money from employees (be it for training, expenses, etc) might be in financial trouble. Alternatively, they might just have gotten sick of pilots leaving the company after a few months. In that case, ask yourself: why did those people leave?

If you're comfortable with that, and if you can afford to lose the money, then you don't have to feel guilty to accept a job with an upfront bond at 200 hours. 200 hour pilots are not able to change the industry. You've got almost no leverage.

Bottom line, it sucks, it will likely be a crappy job, you'll likely want to (or maybe will be able to) leave before the bond is up. But you need to start somewhere.

Do share the name of the company though, so more experienced pilots can avoid the company. They do have some leverage.

I appreciate your honest opinion on this. The bond is repaid monthly over two years, so in the worst-case scenario of the company going bust after a year, I will lose 50%. It seems legitimate based on feedback from a couple of employees I contacted on LinkedIn; they believe the company is honest. This doesn't mean the work is easy, but gaining multi-turboprop experience at 220TT doesn't seem like a bad idea. It's only the upfront money that's making me uneasy; other than that, it looks good on the surface. Thanks for your input; I do appreciate it. Regarding the company name, I don't yet feel comfortable sharing it at the moment, but I will definitely keep everyone updated here.

[matt foley]

Depending on how the bond is structured, you have the ability to make money on this. "Back in the day" a company I worked for transitioned into requiring a bond. However, they expected one to go to bank and set up a loan to which the company would repay(to the pilot at each pay check expecting said pilot to then advance the sum to bank) including interest. If one were savvy and had the means to cover the bond themselves(personal savings, interest free loan, fellow pilot who agrees to split the interest profit and finances 5-8 pilots a annually etc) they would get the agreement from bank, present it to the company and hence pocket the interest which would be high as said pilot would be very honest about their crap financial state and possible default on loan...a 10% interest rate was target but one bank was regularly charging 18%...BINGO!

I'm not saying anyone was loan sharking but I wouldn't go swimming.


MF

[DanWEC]

I personally don't know of anyone off the top of my head who's signed an upfront bond and we've all made it just fine. I'd consider it a bit of a red flag. It was always the shady operators asking for this kind of thing. That's not to say there are plenty of folks who have, and it's worked out fine- it's just not the norm.

I feel for you, I know it's tough when you have limited options starting out, but if you're intent on the company, perhaps ask if they'd agree to a promissory note instead, payable if you leave, pro-rated. That's pretty standard- but part of me thinks if there's smoke, there's fire....

[cdnavater]

I’m pretty sure CALM Air used to do this, it was a loan that they paid unless you left.
As for the upfront, I would ask if you can have it held in trust, it sure seems one sided at this point.
Honestly, this is akin to buying a job but I’m not in your position, I’ve been lucky enough to never have a bond. One company asked, I declined and moved on.

[JBI]

With regard to bonds, the devil is in the details.

SouthWest used to require a 737 Type rating before they'd hire you! Times have changed but as a 220 hour wonder, it's still hard to get some traction.

And just to clarify, by upfront, you mean you pay the money for the training and the Company then pays you a percentage of the money back each paycheque, correct?

These are the things you need to ask yourself:

1- How much is the bond for? Is it reasonable or do the costs seem inflated for the type rating/training that you're getting?
There was an operator who demanded a bond but did all their training on empty revenue legs! When they took the pilot to court for not paying back the bond, the company got their wrist slapped for trying to double dip.

2- Can you actually afford the bond/loan etc? While perhaps the company has an agreement with a bank, if you're already pretty in debt with flight training and living expenses, a large loan to pay for a bond can be an unacceptable risk.

3- What aircraft is the rating for? Is it useful for other jobs/operators? If the training is for a King Air 200 - they're everywhere and a King Air Type Rating will still be useful even if the company goes under. But if it's for a type of aircraft that very few company's operate, then you're paying a lot of money for something you may not get to use much.

4- What will you do if better opportunities come up? Worth taking the hit and moving on? Or will you need to stay until the whole loan is paid off? If it ends up being a crappy job, you're stuck there for a while.

[HFNav]

Hey everyone,

I'd like to hear your honest opinion about something. I've been following this forum for a couple of years, and one thing that stands out is how training bonds, especially the upfront ones, are being portrayed. I agree it's not a good thing, but how can you convince someone in my position, and I'm sure many others with a fresh CPL (currently at 220TT, multi-IFR), that signing an upfront bond reimbursed in 2 years is a bad deal?

Never pay money or put up your own loan from a bank.

This practice has almost disappeared.
Which company is still doing this?

There are still companies with training agreements, including at ALPA, but at least these don’t require you to put up money or enter into banking agreements.

There are many other companies you can apply to that don’t require money upfront.

There should be protections for you as a pilot written into the bond.

These are some standard ones:

No amount can be recovered in the case of redundancy, loss of medical licence by the pilot, termination of employment by the employer (except where the termination is because of serious misconduct and there is no later finding by a court or tribunal, or acceptance by the employer ,that the employee did not engage in the serious misconduct on which the termination was based) or where the pilot fails the training course.

Make sure that there are clauses to protect you in case you fail the training, especially if the tester is from the company. Otherwise, the company can fail you and collect on your bond without a month of salary.

Ensure there are lines which protect you from having to pay if you refuse to fly due to safety concerns. Often there can be pressure to fly in unsafe conditions, and for bonded pilots this can come through threat of termination.

What qualifies as termination? What if you are fatigued or call in sick? Does the bond agreement protect you in these circumstances.

Protection for you in the bond in case you need a leave of absence or permanent leave due to medical conditions or death of spouse or immediate family.

What if you are injured on the job? Pilots have injured unloading and loading aircraft, slipping on ice and other conditions at work.

If the company has a loss of business and they no longer need you, do you still have to pay the bond if they terminate you? This should be in the agreement.

Check whether they require another bond to be signed for upgrading to captain. Avoid companies that ask you to pay up multiple bonds while employed there.

Another standard is a line that states if the company hires another pilot without a bond, then your bond should be dropped. This should be in the contract.

The training bond amount should reduce on a monthly pro rata basis over the term of the training bond.

The term of the bond should be no more than one year.

The training bond amount should not exceed 50% of the actual cost of the training.

The training bond amount should only be related to the cost of aircraft type training. It shouldn’t include the costs of hotels, meals, first aid courses, government required workplace safety training, or your training wages which are standard costs for all employees in aviation even flight attendants who don’t sign training bonds.

If you aren't getting a type rating, you don't need to sign a bond. Most single engine aircraft don't require type ratings.
Don't sign one for a PC12 or a larger Cessna

Never sign bonds over $15,000, unless you have the money in the bank to pay. Some bonds require an immediate payback within 2 weeks of termination, otherwise your have to pay interest. So a $30,000 bond can go to $40,000 in a year. To pay $40,000 you have to earn at least $60,000 prior to income tax to only pay the bond, on top of what you’re paying for debt on your flight training loans and on top of your cost of living.


If you are considering signing, talk with someone that has legal training for their opinion.

Is this company unionised?

You can send a PM with the company name or a link to a copy of the bond or agreement

[ZacharyA220]

1- How much is the bond for? Is it reasonable or do the costs seem inflated for the type rating/training that you're getting?
There was an operator who demanded a bond but did all their training on empty revenue legs! When they took the pilot to court for not paying back the bond, the company got their wrist slapped for trying to double dip.

2- Can you actually afford the bond/loan etc? While perhaps the company has an agreement with a bank, if you're already pretty in debt with flight training and living expenses, a large loan to pay for a bond can be an unacceptable risk.

3- What aircraft is the rating for? Is it useful for other jobs/operators? If the training is for a King Air 200 - they're everywhere and a King Air Type Rating will still be useful even if the company goes under. But if it's for a type of aircraft that very few company's operate, then you're paying a lot of money for something you may not get to use much.

4- What will you do if better opportunities come up? Worth taking the hit and moving on? Or will you need to stay until the whole loan is paid off? If it ends up being a crappy job, you're stuck there for a while.

I appreciate your help, and I have not signed anything yet. It has not yet been confirmed that I would have the job. They simply told me the Chief Pilot would contact me, asking me a couple of theory questions to see if I'm fit for the position. So, this isn't even a guarantee that I would get the job, but I really wanted to know more about this topic. Now, for your bullet points:

1- The bond entails the entire $9,000 paid upfront, which will then be reimbursed monthly to my paycheck over a period of 2 years, along with a small interest percentage. I'm not sure if it's reasonable, to be honest. It's for a King Air B200, and they mentioned we would use the plane for 6 hours, which doesn't seem unreasonable in my opinion. I also came across a post about someone completing their type rating on revenue flights, which is illegal if I recall correctly.

2- Like many student pilots, I am in debt. However, I'm extremely grateful to be able to live with my parents even at my age (24), as it helps me stay afloat. The interest from my loan is piling up quickly, especially with the recent interest hikes (currently $43,000 in debt from flight training). Having some money coming in is becoming urgent. Yes, I'll be able to afford the $9,000 upfront.

3- It is for a King Air B200, and I'll definitely ask if there's a bond for upgrading to captain too.

4- I plan to stay with the company until I reach my ATPL minimums. That's why I'm uneasy about this whole situation. I can't afford to get scammed out of $9,000, but I also can't stay stagnant, waiting for the perfect opportunity.

I genuinely want to learn more about this subject to avoid any pitfalls if they call me for the position. Thanks again for your help; I am truly grateful for you taking the time for this.

[ant_321]

DO NOT DO IT! Signing any type of training bond is far from ideal but paying money up front is a big NO! Move along, another opportunity will come up. It may involve moving out of your parents house though.

[digits_]

Also take note that the money for the refund of the bond is added on top of at least minimum wage. If it isn't, make sure to document everything, and call the labour board once you've got at least your money back.

9000 dollars for a king air type rating does seem fair. Money up front does not. 2 years seems a bit long as well, but not unheard of.

Tough decision. How many hours do they expect you'll be flying? Do they have multi crew SOPs for the plane? Otherwise you might run into issues counting the hours for your ATPL.

[Stable_Approach]

1- How much is the bond for? Is it reasonable or do the costs seem inflated for the type rating/training that you're getting?
There was an operator who demanded a bond but did all their training on empty revenue legs! When they took the pilot to court for not paying back the bond, the company got their wrist slapped for trying to double dip.

2- Can you actually afford the bond/loan etc? While perhaps the company has an agreement with a bank, if you're already pretty in debt with flight training and living expenses, a large loan to pay for a bond can be an unacceptable risk.

3- What aircraft is the rating for? Is it useful for other jobs/operators? If the training is for a King Air 200 - they're everywhere and a King Air Type Rating will still be useful even if the company goes under. But if it's for a type of aircraft that very few company's operate, then you're paying a lot of money for something you may not get to use much.

4- What will you do if better opportunities come up? Worth taking the hit and moving on? Or will you need to stay until the whole loan is paid off? If it ends up being a crappy job, you're stuck there for a while.

I appreciate your help, and I have not signed anything yet. It has not yet been confirmed that I would have the job. They simply told me the Chief Pilot would contact me, asking me a couple of theory questions to see if I'm fit for the position. So, this isn't even a guarantee that I would get the job, but I really wanted to know more about this topic. Now, for your bullet points:

1- The bond entails the entire $9,000 paid upfront, which will then be reimbursed monthly to my paycheck over a period of 2 years, along with a small interest percentage. I'm not sure if it's reasonable, to be honest. It's for a King Air B200, and they mentioned we would use the plane for 6 hours, which doesn't seem unreasonable in my opinion. I also came across a post about someone completing their type rating on revenue flights, which is illegal if I recall correctly.

2- Like many student pilots, I am in debt. However, I'm extremely grateful to be able to live with my parents even at my age (24), as it helps me stay afloat. The interest from my loan is piling up quickly, especially with the recent interest hikes (currently $43,000 in debt from flight training). Having some money coming in is becoming urgent. Yes, I'll be able to afford the $9,000 upfront.

3- It is for a King Air B200, and I'll definitely ask if there's a bond for upgrading to captain too.

4- I plan to stay with the company until I reach my ATPL minimums. That's why I'm uneasy about this whole situation. I can't afford to get scammed out of $9,000, but I also can't stay stagnant, waiting for the perfect opportunity.

I genuinely want to learn more about this subject to avoid any pitfalls if they call me for the position. Thanks again for your help; I am truly grateful for you taking the time for this.

If this operator is based east of Toronto then I know who it is and we just got one of their pilots recently who jumped ship less than a year in. Place is complete shite. Bonds are thing of the past except for the shady operators that nobody wants to work at. Training agreements is fair but in this market I wouldn’t be risking $9k on a job unless you’re comfortable losing it and still being able to sleep at night. Sounds like you may not be.

[Bede]

Is this missinippi?

[ZacharyA220]

Tough decision. How many hours do they expect you'll be flying? Do they have multi crew SOPs for the plane? Otherwise you might run into issues counting the hours for your ATPL.

They told me I should expect around 400 hours per year (is that even a good number idk), which appears to be accurate when I compared it with a former employee from LinkedIn. Regarding the SOPs, that's a good question I did not address, but I will definitely do so if they contact me back.

[Me262]

And you need to be PCC'd otherwise you have to beg for the CP to certify your hours. Something that might not happen if you want to leave but they need you to use as cannon fodder for cheap

[digits_]

And you need to be PCC'd otherwise you have to beg for the CP to certify your hours. Something that might not happen if you want to leave but they need you to use as cannon fodder for cheap

I think the OP would have a case though if he didn't get. PPC / PCC. After all, what did he pay for if he doesn't get that? Some other topics here hinted that the employer can only make you pay for training if it benefits the employee outside of the one company. You'd need a PPC /PCC to fulfill that requirement.

[Me262]

And you need to be PCC'd otherwise you have to beg for the CP to certify your hours. Something that might not happen if you want to leave but they need you to use as cannon fodder for cheap

I think the OP would have a case though if he didn't get. PPC / PCC. After all, what did he pay for if he doesn't get that? Some other topics here hinted that the employer can only make you pay for training if it benefits the employee outside of the one company. You'd need a PPC /PCC to fulfill that requirement.

In court yes but what about with transport to fulfill his ATPL.

[ZacharyA220]

Quick Update

I want to start by thanking everyone who has contributed to this thread, particularly digits_, JBI, and HFNav. Your input has been incredibly valuable.

I've officially received an offer for the FO position on the King Air. If the contract checks out, I'll likely go ahead and sign it. I won't try and justify my selfish decision, but navigating the entry-level pilot job market without connections is tough. Even with an avionic maintenance background, one might expect it to count for something, but, well... (I can't think how many times I heard, when asking around for opportunities, the phrase, "There are jobs everywhere! You just have to look for them!" I found that amusing after the 10th time. )

As mentioned in my original post, this thread is also for new pilots in a similar position. I'll use it to honestly document whether my decision turns out to be good or, more importantly, goes horribly wrong. If you happen to read this post while in flight training or about to start, I strongly advise you to network extensively. If you believe your CPL flight test will be the most challenging part of your flight training, think again...

I hope this decision won't come back to haunt me in the future. Thanks again to everyone; I'll keep you posted.

[digits_]

Quick Update

I want to start by thanking everyone who has contributed to this thread, particularly digits_, JBI, and HFNav. Your input has been incredibly valuable.

I've officially received an offer for the FO position on the King Air. If the contract checks out, I'll likely go ahead and sign it. I won't try and justify my selfish decision, but navigating the entry-level pilot job market without connections is tough. Even with an avionic maintenance background, one might expect it to count for something, but, well... (I can't think how many times I heard, when asking around for opportunities, the phrase, "There are jobs everywhere! You just have to look for them!" I found that amusing after the 10th time. )

As mentioned in my original post, this thread is also for new pilots in a similar position. I'll use it to honestly document whether my decision turns out to be good or, more importantly, goes horribly wrong. If you happen to read this post while in flight training or about to start, I strongly advise you to network extensively. If you believe your CPL flight test will be the most challenging part of your flight training, think again...

I hope this decision won't come back to haunt me in the future. Thanks again to everyone; I'll keep you posted.

Congrats on the first job! Enjoy!

[Janitroll]

Can someone explain why the Dash8 bond at ALPA Wasaya $15k, the Dash8 bond at ALPA PAL $26k and the similar type ATR72 bond at ALPA Calm Air $12k?

Three different bonds for similar training, all at ALPA.

What about the $31k bond for at Pacific Coastal, with 1/2 the passengers of the DashATR?

[IJNShiroyuki]

The actual type rating training cost more than 30k from what I heard. Different company set the bond themself. A higher bond will deter applicants and lower bond will have people pay out bond.

[pelmet]

A bond would make sense if the company paid the going interest rate on it. Then it would actually be an investment that paid off if you stayed for the length you assured the company you would when asking them to invest in you.

[Duukar]

DO NOT DO IT!

You are giving soo much power to the employer its absurd. They can literally do whatever they want.

You think you will get a reference? Are you sure? The job means NOTHING without a reference. Great way to exert pressure on a young pilot to fly when it may not be the best idea.

What if you fail the PPC? At 250TT that's a strong possibility. Will they pay the bond back? Are you sure?

Ask yourself why they want the money up front? None of the answers are good! It's basically a set up to screw you over with no repercussions for the employer. If you work out they win. If you don't work out, they win.

This is absolutely predatory and only the worst of the worst would ever consider doing this to a young pilot.

You have a lot to lose, including your life, working for a fly by night operation like this.

DO NOT DO IT!!