B1900 in the dark continent
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
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bob sacamano
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- Location: I'm not in Kansas anymore
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bob sacamano
- Rank (9)
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- Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:26 am
- Location: I'm not in Kansas anymore
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Cat Driver
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Amazing, simply amazing that anyone would be retarded enough to fly that fast that close to glassy water, especially doing turns.
So much for airmanship.
Any pilot who thinks that flying a 1900 that way is cool is mentally deficient.
Cat
So much for airmanship.
Any pilot who thinks that flying a 1900 that way is cool is mentally deficient.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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sky's the limit
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I really don't see the issue here guys.
As long as no limits were exceeded, which it certainly doesn't look like there were, who cares? There was ample visual reference with the trees, regardless of glassy water. Nice to see someone having some fun for change...
Now is that the ideal machine to be ripping around in down low? Nope, but it works. Everyone is so hypercritical whenever one of these vidoes is posted, I think there's bigger fish to fry when it comes to the airmanship of the average Turbo-prop driver - at least this person put the thing down on the theshold....
Just my take,
STL
As long as no limits were exceeded, which it certainly doesn't look like there were, who cares? There was ample visual reference with the trees, regardless of glassy water. Nice to see someone having some fun for change...
Now is that the ideal machine to be ripping around in down low? Nope, but it works. Everyone is so hypercritical whenever one of these vidoes is posted, I think there's bigger fish to fry when it comes to the airmanship of the average Turbo-prop driver - at least this person put the thing down on the theshold....
Just my take,
STL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFK12QZ5 ... 0make%20it
For you guys that think really low flyin is cool. Just kidding, I like low flying but this is what happens
For you guys that think really low flyin is cool. Just kidding, I like low flying but this is what happens
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sky's the limit
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More Hawker Than Sidley
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Gotta agree with CAT on this one..Oh ! Wait..now I understand....the bosses MADE them fly so overgross that they had no other choice than to fly in ground effect (water effect?) or else they would have crashed for sure.....and...the roll? That was to provide positive G to keep the natives in the back in their seats....wouldn't want them to become restless, would we? Do these guys really think this is kool and untrackable and untraceable...we live in a global village! Imagine for a moment if Georgian Express buys another BE1900 and its from Africa and one of you guys that think this is so kool is now asked to fly it with crew you know and with family and friends that will be travelling with you on board.....and these guys wonder why they are not and will not be flying for Big Red or the other biggies.....my2Cents....Cat you got it right! mhts
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fougapilot
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Well I cant speak for the avonics or instruments on board but if u do a role right which it looks like he did a good job then only 1 G should have been done throughout the move, so, normal flight G loads. When your empty, not in built up area, and both crew members agree to do it, why not? You can still have fun with aviation right? 
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fougapilot
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Absolutely you can still have fun. The next thing you know, rolls are no longer satisfying your needs, so you move up to bigger and better things. You try a loop. After all, if it's done well, you only pull 3Gs in a loop and the airplane is limited to 3.5Gs, so why not? Well the next thing you know, is you are pulling out of the loop, hear a big crack and end up with very short wings.
This happened to a friend of mine who used to loop his Seneca. The last one he did was 3days before his wedding. SAR found the wreckage with him inside missing both wings jost outboard the engines. TSB found the wings a few mile further.
185/310,
Don't get me wrong, I love aerobatics. Fly them all the time. As a fact, I did 4 hrs of acro last Saturday alone. But I always fly them in acro airplanes. If you plan on living, always fly an airplane in the maner it was designed to fly.
My 2cents.
D
This happened to a friend of mine who used to loop his Seneca. The last one he did was 3days before his wedding. SAR found the wreckage with him inside missing both wings jost outboard the engines. TSB found the wings a few mile further.
185/310,
Don't get me wrong, I love aerobatics. Fly them all the time. As a fact, I did 4 hrs of acro last Saturday alone. But I always fly them in acro airplanes. If you plan on living, always fly an airplane in the maner it was designed to fly.
My 2cents.
D
Now, wouldn't that be a giggle. Tell ya what. You do it, strap a camcorder to the dash and let us see it. Better yet, do it over a football stadium. I dare ya.Expat wrote:I think that looping , if well done is within the normal category of most aircrafts...
What then do you think about spinning,...at night...?
bmc
Two full turns. 700 ft loss.bmc wrote:Now, wouldn't that be a giggle. Tell ya what. You do it, strap a camcorder to the dash and let us see it. Better yet, do it over a football stadium. I dare ya.Expat wrote:I think that looping , if well done is within the normal category of most aircrafts...
What then do you think about spinning,...at night...?
There was a witness!
Success in life is when the cognac that you drink is older than the women you drink it with.
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sky's the limit
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There's a certain KA Capt on here who used to do spins with me at night over my girlfriends house.... of course we were young and silly back then, but does an a/c spin any different when it's dark???? Didn't think so.
In an admittedly poor example, do you think Bob Hoover's routine was crazy??? Probably not, because it's Bob Hoover, but if it were someone else rolling and looping a commercial a/c you would.... uh, do. Even with the engines on. It amazing how programed everyone seems. Of course I'm the first person to say if you want to muck around like that, get the proper a/c and the proper training, but some low level flying and a roll in a 1900 hardly desrves a cruxifiction. IMHO
And the logic that rolls will progress to loops is silly, totally different ball of wax. Guess the guy who rolled the 707 in Seattle was nuts too?
STL
In an admittedly poor example, do you think Bob Hoover's routine was crazy??? Probably not, because it's Bob Hoover, but if it were someone else rolling and looping a commercial a/c you would.... uh, do. Even with the engines on. It amazing how programed everyone seems. Of course I'm the first person to say if you want to muck around like that, get the proper a/c and the proper training, but some low level flying and a roll in a 1900 hardly desrves a cruxifiction. IMHO
And the logic that rolls will progress to loops is silly, totally different ball of wax. Guess the guy who rolled the 707 in Seattle was nuts too?
STL
As long as both guys except the risk (and would say someting as soon as they felt uncomfortable), the company doesnt forbid it and no one else is in harms way(No Pax). For me, ive done the same type of stuff in the same plane, but wont do it again. It was fun, but it wasnt until after that I really thought about the ramifications of; hitting a bird or an engine failure while that low. But if you except that risk and its worth it to you. Go for it. For me, ive lost enough friends already. I dont need to fly like that to feel alive anymore.
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ScudRunner
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Its good to know I can still do that stuff in a bigger plane!!!
Im still puzzled at all the talk about this, Im useally down there on days that aint cavok like this guy. To many right seat 172 drivers on this site that give reach arounds at the Denny's Urinal to talk to pilots.
Oh man you should have seen that moose dive for cover in that lake
Im still puzzled at all the talk about this, Im useally down there on days that aint cavok like this guy. To many right seat 172 drivers on this site that give reach arounds at the Denny's Urinal to talk to pilots.
Oh man you should have seen that moose dive for cover in that lake
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fougapilot
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Sky,
I have nothing against this guy doing low level acro, (Heck, I do them myself) I have never met him, he may be a former FAI World champion or just missing a few screws. Truth is we don't know and for my comments it doesn't mathers. My point is not about the pilot, but about the airplane. Since you brought it up, I will assume you know that Bob Hoover's Commander was actually certified to perform Aerobatics (one of 2 in the world if memory serves). The airplanes were built with stronger spars and stab and were certified by the FAA for loops and rolls (so old Bob could perform with it and sell more of them. He was after all their sales rep). So were the Saberliners, Beech 18 (not all) and a few other airplanes of that era. Hell rolls (in the airplanes, not Sim) were even part of the FlightSafety innitial and reccurent training on the Saberliner! that is untill the lawyers found out...
As for the progression between roll and loops, I have seen it happen more then once. It is actually what happened to this Seneca guy. I have also seen many flight instructor do them (without any training might I add) with their students in buck50s...
Its a free world.
D
I have nothing against this guy doing low level acro, (Heck, I do them myself) I have never met him, he may be a former FAI World champion or just missing a few screws. Truth is we don't know and for my comments it doesn't mathers. My point is not about the pilot, but about the airplane. Since you brought it up, I will assume you know that Bob Hoover's Commander was actually certified to perform Aerobatics (one of 2 in the world if memory serves). The airplanes were built with stronger spars and stab and were certified by the FAA for loops and rolls (so old Bob could perform with it and sell more of them. He was after all their sales rep). So were the Saberliners, Beech 18 (not all) and a few other airplanes of that era. Hell rolls (in the airplanes, not Sim) were even part of the FlightSafety innitial and reccurent training on the Saberliner! that is untill the lawyers found out...
As for the progression between roll and loops, I have seen it happen more then once. It is actually what happened to this Seneca guy. I have also seen many flight instructor do them (without any training might I add) with their students in buck50s...
Its a free world.
D
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sky's the limit
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Fouga,
Yes I'm aware that Bob's a/c were not completely stock, hence the "admittedly poor example" preface to my comment.
As for the progression between rolls and loops, that just displays a severe lack of understanding on the part of the pilots involved, they are completely different in terms of a/c stress, and more importantly, the stresses involved when they are NOT performed well. So, in that you are correct, there are always going to be ppl who do dumb things.
I was fortunate enough to have a reasonable amount of aerobatic time when I was starting out, and I stronly feel that it's something that should be included in the CPL requirements. The knowledge gained through that type of flying saved my bacon many times in the bush over the years when things didn't go quite as planned. But that's another thread/arugement isn't it? LOL
The roll aside, low flying is a separate skill, especailly in the mountians, and one that is avoided like the plauge in flight training in this country. Even if it weren't, having a 400hr instructor teaching someone about low altitude work is pointless. Are there elevated risks when flying low? Sure, but like any other aspect of flight, if they are well understood, and planned for, it can be done as safely as flying on Otto at FL240. Chasing animals around low-level in the mountains, in winter, for 30-40hrs week can be done safely with the right knowledge and experience - when's the last time you heard about a game survey crash?
I guess my issue is just the kneejerk reaction most ppl on here have when a video of this nature comes up, most have NO IDEA what they're talking about as they've never done it. There are things people do with airplanes and helicopters that are fantastically skilled, and are way outside the "normal" straight and level flying most posters on here do every day.
That was a B1900, I work fires with the DC-6's, Convairs, Fire Cats, and the Martin Mars flying boats... These guys do a super job of hustling these very large machines around low-level, in the moutains, hot, heavy, and usually in restricted vis. They understand thier environment, and mitigate the risks wherever poosible. That's the name of the game, and as far as I could see, the B1900 in question did a nice job.
STL
Yes I'm aware that Bob's a/c were not completely stock, hence the "admittedly poor example" preface to my comment.
As for the progression between rolls and loops, that just displays a severe lack of understanding on the part of the pilots involved, they are completely different in terms of a/c stress, and more importantly, the stresses involved when they are NOT performed well. So, in that you are correct, there are always going to be ppl who do dumb things.
I was fortunate enough to have a reasonable amount of aerobatic time when I was starting out, and I stronly feel that it's something that should be included in the CPL requirements. The knowledge gained through that type of flying saved my bacon many times in the bush over the years when things didn't go quite as planned. But that's another thread/arugement isn't it? LOL
The roll aside, low flying is a separate skill, especailly in the mountians, and one that is avoided like the plauge in flight training in this country. Even if it weren't, having a 400hr instructor teaching someone about low altitude work is pointless. Are there elevated risks when flying low? Sure, but like any other aspect of flight, if they are well understood, and planned for, it can be done as safely as flying on Otto at FL240. Chasing animals around low-level in the mountains, in winter, for 30-40hrs week can be done safely with the right knowledge and experience - when's the last time you heard about a game survey crash?
I guess my issue is just the kneejerk reaction most ppl on here have when a video of this nature comes up, most have NO IDEA what they're talking about as they've never done it. There are things people do with airplanes and helicopters that are fantastically skilled, and are way outside the "normal" straight and level flying most posters on here do every day.
That was a B1900, I work fires with the DC-6's, Convairs, Fire Cats, and the Martin Mars flying boats... These guys do a super job of hustling these very large machines around low-level, in the moutains, hot, heavy, and usually in restricted vis. They understand thier environment, and mitigate the risks wherever poosible. That's the name of the game, and as far as I could see, the B1900 in question did a nice job.
STL
