Ferry piston aircrafts across Canada

[Me262]

Anyone done these? I was thinking it's pretty dangerous flying a single piston aircraft while trying to dodge weather to stay VMC, especially if having to cross the rockies via VFR routes and the clouds roll in (sketchy!), anytime other than summer. I assume maybe some of these small aircrafts could be IFR rated, but I'm sure they have no anti-ice system.

What's your experience if you've done them?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Ferry flying is not a job for low time pilots. Based on your previous posts you do not have the experience to do this kind of work. My last ferry flight was a trans Canada delivery of a Cessna 421. When I made it to the West Coast I presented the new owner with a 59 item snag list.

[sarg]

Risk is dependent, how long has the a/c been sitting, was it well maintained. WX is it's own risk, you have to be willing to say it's not happening today whether it's IFR with no suitable alternate in rate or VFR through the passes.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Risk is dependent, how long has the a/c been sitting, was it well maintained. WX is it's own risk, you have to be willing to say it's not happening today whether it's IFR with no suitable alternate in rate or VFR through the passes.

200 hour brand new CPL’s are going to pretty much by definition not have the skills to make the kind of flight planning decisions that are required to get the job done safely. In any case good luck getting insurance for ferry flying without significant experience.

[Squaretail]

Risk is dependent, how long has the a/c been sitting, was it well maintained. WX is it's own risk, you have to be willing to say it's not happening today whether it's IFR with no suitable alternate in rate or VFR through the passes.

200 hour brand new CPL’s are going to pretty much by definition not have the skills to make the kind of flight planning decisions that are required to get the job done safely. In any case good luck getting insurance for ferry flying without significant experience.

I'm not sure about that part of it BPF. It ain't rocket science to do the flight planning to get an airplane across the country. If they managed to survive their 300 nm cross country, flight planning isn't going to be the tricky part. The chief things they are going to have problems with if they are new to the commercial game is saying no if time is a factor in this equation. Ferrying, if one has the luxury of time and budget, isn't really that tough. Besides that, mechanical knowledge and paperwork are the big things a new pilot can get caught out on. Be ready to walk away if it turns out the plane or its papers aren't in order, and that might mean buying your own ticket home.

But then saying no is the main thing you need to learn as a commercial pilot. If you can't learn that quick, then no endeavor (including ferrying) involving paid flying is going to work out for you.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The 300 mile CPL cross country should be approved by the students instructor, especially if the airplane is a flight school rental. It will be on a clear and a million day to the same places everybody goes to.

Ferry flights don’t give you the luxury of waiting for perfect, you will use your experience to get the job done in good enough weather while managing the aircraft defects that are almost certainly going to be present. That kind of experience takes time to learn. In addition your point about assessing the paperwork and condition of the aircraft is also very important

At the average FTU the dispatcher throws the keys at you and the FTU technical dispatch system should provide you with an airworthy airplane. If there is a problem there is a school AME to ask. None of that exists in BumFuck Ontario when you show up to ferry the airplane you have never seen before.

I say again commercial ferry flying is not an entry level job.

[Bede]

I'm with BPF. Every ferry flight that I've done has been a pain. Planes almost always sell because they don't fly enough and planes that don't fly have maintenance issues. Now throw in crossing multiple weather systems, time constraints and you have a recipe for a very difficult trip.

[digits_]

The 300 mile CPL cross country should be approved by the students instructor, especially if the airplane is a flight school rental. It will be on a clear and a million day to the same places everybody goes to.

There have been plenty of discussions about this topic that, at the very least, illustrate there are a few CPL students in Canada that did not do their 300 NM cross country under FTU supervision. Some might fly the 'official' 300 NM under supervision, but that doesn't mean that they can't have flown to other destinations on their own.

Ferry flights don’t give you the luxury of waiting for perfect, you will use your experience to get the job done in good enough weather while managing the aircraft defects that are almost certainly going to be present. That kind of experience takes time to learn. In addition your point about assessing the paperwork and condition of the aircraft is also very important

At the average FTU the dispatcher throws the keys at you and the FTU technical dispatch system should provide you with an airworthy airplane. If there is a problem there is a school AME to ask. None of that exists in BumFuck Ontario when you show up to ferry the airplane you have never seen before.

Where did you find an AME to rectify the 59 snags you found during the ferry flight you described?

I say again commercial ferry flying is not an entry level job.

But what is? Flying a 206 in possibly worse mehanical shape at a shady 703 op in worse weather conditions under more pressure with paying pax on board? It's much easier to piss off one aircraft owner on a one off ferry flight waiting for better weather, than it is to piss off your boss on your first actual job!

In that regards, ferry flying is a perfect first job. The risk is limited to you and the airplane. Not an easy job, but you'll get that experience quite quickly.

200 hour brand new CPL’s are going to pretty much by definition not have the skills to make the kind of flight planning decisions that are required to get the job done safely. In any case good luck getting insurance for ferry flying without significant experience.

That doesn't make sense. By what definition?

If I can take the liberty paraphrase the common theme in your posts, I think it would sound something like this: "Not every CPL holder will be able to safely complete every random ferry flight". Which is of course true. But that doesn't mean that you can't say "some CPL holders are quite capable of safely completing a ferry flight between Toronto and Montreal". There's a whole spectrum out there of 'ferry flights'.

Realistically, I think the biggest risks are liability, unhappy customers (you're 2 weeks late!!!), unexpected costs (fine if you wanted to wait out the weather in a hotel, but I ain't paying for it!). Crashing is always a risk, but with proper preparation those flights shouldn't be the death traps they are made out to be.

Very few crashes are linked to pure mechanical failures. Lots of sitting airplanes aren't going to fail in the next 10 hours. Even, worst case scenario, rusty metal making engines don't necessarily explode in the first 10 hours you fire them up again.

[PilotDAR]

Lots of my earlier flying was transcontinental VFR single engined ferries, and it went fine. But, I had a good mentor, and never any pressure to make it in a certain time. Certainly today's aids to navigation make it a lot easier then in my pre GPS days, using nothing other than paper charts. If the pilot will take time, to become familiar with the plane, and its systems (avionics) before beginning the flight, take their time enroute to not push things, and have some support for something [mechanical] going wrong enroute, I think ferrying is a good way to build experience.

If the plane is new to you, read the flight manual, and the supplements. Don't depart if you don't understand a system! Really understand the fuel system! And be sure that you're well supported by a trusted client for the flight. Twice, things looked fishy, and I determined that ownership of the airplane was not clear, so I did not fly it!

Since 1985, I've done several dozen trans continental solo ferries, three copilot Transatlantic, and one copilot (but he let me fly the whole flight) Holland to South Africa. I learned a lot - particularly to listen to my little voice, and sometimes say, I'll see if tomorrow will be better for this next leg!

[Tbayer2021]

The 300 mile CPL cross country should be approved by the students instructor, especially if the airplane is a flight school rental. It will be on a clear and a million day to the same places everybody goes to.

There have been plenty of discussions about this topic that, at the very least, illustrate there are a few CPL students in Canada that did not do their 300 NM cross country under FTU supervision. Some might fly the 'official' 300 NM under supervision, but that doesn't mean that they can't have flown to other destinations on their own.

Ferry flights don’t give you the luxury of waiting for perfect, you will use your experience to get the job done in good enough weather while managing the aircraft defects that are almost certainly going to be present. That kind of experience takes time to learn. In addition your point about assessing the paperwork and condition of the aircraft is also very important

At the average FTU the dispatcher throws the keys at you and the FTU technical dispatch system should provide you with an airworthy airplane. If there is a problem there is a school AME to ask. None of that exists in BumFuck Ontario when you show up to ferry the airplane you have never seen before.

Where did you find an AME to rectify the 59 snags you found during the ferry flight you described?

I say again commercial ferry flying is not an entry level job.

But what is? Flying a 206 in possibly worse mehanical shape at a shady 703 op in worse weather conditions under more pressure with paying pax on board? It's much easier to piss off one aircraft owner on a one off ferry flight waiting for better weather, than it is to piss off your boss on your first actual job!

In that regards, ferry flying is a perfect first job. The risk is limited to you and the airplane. Not an easy job, but you'll get that experience quite quickly.

200 hour brand new CPL’s are going to pretty much by definition not have the skills to make the kind of flight planning decisions that are required to get the job done safely. In any case good luck getting insurance for ferry flying without significant experience.

That doesn't make sense. By what definition?

If I can take the liberty paraphrase the common theme in your posts, I think it would sound something like this: "Not every CPL holder will be able to safely complete every random ferry flight". Which is of course true. But that doesn't mean that you can't say "some CPL holders are quite capable of safely completing a ferry flight between Toronto and Montreal". There's a whole spectrum out there of 'ferry flights'.

Realistically, I think the biggest risks are liability, unhappy customers (you're 2 weeks late!!!), unexpected costs (fine if you wanted to wait out the weather in a hotel, but I ain't paying for it!). Crashing is always a risk, but with proper preparation those flights shouldn't be the death traps they are made out to be.

Very few crashes are linked to pure mechanical failures. Lots of sitting airplanes aren't going to fail in the next 10 hours. Even, worst case scenario, rusty metal making engines don't necessarily explode in the first 10 hours you fire them up again.

I agree with digits_. Some type of ferry flying can be dangerous and certainly requires experience, but not all. Taking a SEP over the North Atlantic is not the same as taking one across Canada. It seems to me that all ferry flying is sometimes seen as difficult and requiring certain level of experience, just because some of it can be challenging. My first ferry job was actually taking a 182 from Buttonville to Vernon during winter. This was a month after I received my CPL and it wasn't challenging in any respect. It was quite a fun trip that I still look back on and wish I could still do such flights.

[Squaretail]

I'm with BPF. Every ferry flight that I've done has been a pain. Planes almost always sell because they don't fly enough and planes that don't fly have maintenance issues. Now throw in crossing multiple weather systems, time constraints and you have a recipe for a very difficult trip.

But every ferry flight isn't a Halifax to Vancouver odyssey that must be done in two days with an unknown quantity of a sold airplane that's spent who knows how long derelict. For example, I've picked up planes from the factory for customers. Its a treat to fly a new airplane. There have been many times picking up currently flying airplanes from paint shops, a few retrievals where owners have had to Westjet back because their time is more important, and a few to be dropped off at their new owners where I was very familiar with the airplane in the first place.

I mean the first thing I do if I take on something like this is make sure I have time and they give me time. Only a fool tries to get a small plane across the continent on a short schedule.

When it comes to machines that haven't flown a lot, well the precautions that one should take, are valid whether you want to take them anywhere. That also goes for airplanes that may fly a lot and have come out of heavy maintenance. That's the task for experienced pilots.

Sold or to be sold airplanes are also something to watch out for. For example, if you're crossing the border with one, make sure there's not an old bill of sale in the airplane's stack of paper.

Long story short, there's lots of possible ferry trips you may have the opportunity to do, like everything in aviation, you can always just say no.

[Big Pistons Forever]

[/quote] Where did you find an AME to rectify the 59 snags you found during the ferry flight you described?[/quote]

The owner wanted me to snag everything I saw. Almost all of the snags were not flight critical like wet carpet in the nose baggage bay, a rip in the cabin carpet, leaking vent window etc etc. However there were major snags that required two shop visits on route. However after at that time 25 years of flying experience I had a pretty good aviation network which helped me find good help. I also used my experience to troubleshoot and fix things myself. I resuscitated one radio by re-racking it, got the GPS to work by figuring out the enter knob was intermittent but if I wiggled the button while pushing it, I could enter a flight plan. I also didn’t panic when one engine started to roll back on climb out, correctly diagnosing low fuel pressure which I restored with the aux fuel pump and a mixture adjustment.

You can’t train experience. Solo ferries in random aircraft will get you “experience” alright, just a significant probability that it will be way more than you were equipped to handle.

[digits_]

The owner wanted me to snag everything I saw. Almost all of the snags were not flight critical like wet carpet in the nose baggage bay, a rip in the cabin carpet, leaking vent window etc etc. However there were major snags that required two shop visits on route. However after at that time 25 years of flying experience I had a pretty good aviation network which helped me find good help. I also used my experience to troubleshoot and fix things myself. I resuscitated one radio by re-racking it, got the GPS to work by figuring out the enter knob was intermittent but if I wiggled the button while pushing it, I could enter a flight plan. I also didn’t panic when one engine started to roll back on climb out, correctly diagnosing low fuel pressure which I restored with the aux fuel pump and a mixture adjustment.

Sounds like it was a fun flight

[rookiepilot]

[My first ferry job was actually taking a 182 from Buttonville to Vernon during winter. This was a month after I received my CPL and it wasn't challenging in any respect.

[Tbayer2021]

[My first ferry job was actually taking a 182 from Buttonville to Vernon during winter. This was a month after I received my CPL and it wasn't challenging in any respect.

Make sure you post my whole comment, Rookie. Everyone needs to see how pathetic you really are.


I agree with digits_. Some type of ferry flying can be dangerous and certainly requires experience, but not all. Taking a SEP over the North Atlantic is not the same as taking one across Canada. It seems to me that all ferry flying is sometimes seen as difficult and requiring certain level of experience, just because some of it can be challenging. My first ferry job was actually taking a 182 from Buttonville to Vernon during winter. This was a month after I received my CPL and it wasn't challenging in any respect. It was quite a fun trip that I still look back on and wish I could still do such flights.

[PilotDAR]

I hope to not need to think of any ferry flying as "dangerous" before you start out. I suppose it can turn that way if things go wrong. But, some ferry flying, generally because of the route, has higher to much higher risks, and requires special equipment. I n some cases (trans oceanic) regulations tell you the minimum equipment to carry. If your pilot training has you asking: "what's that?" with respect to the special equipment, that ferry flight is not for you!

Otherwise, if you're not being rushed into poor weather, not being pressured into flying an airplane in poor condition, and the airplane type and equipment (avionics) are within your skill set, I see no reason that a low time pilot would not consider a ferry flight - just be honest with yourself, and the client as to your capabilities, and expectations. Always have a back pocket plan, where you're going to land as your alternate, particularly where you're going to land if you have a failure in flight - close to get on the ground safely? Or carry on a little to an airport with resources? Who's your "phone a friend" when you land with a concern? Who will fly to meet you to keep you going when the airplane won't go next leg?

A ferry flight is just a number of shorter cross countries end to end. When you get to the mountains, allow for more, longer stops, and every stop you make, as you're getting the weather for the next leg, ask the locals what they think about your planned onward next leg. If they would not continue that day, you certainly should not!

[Tantrum1]

Some of this is an interesting read. I'm a newer CPL with 350ish hours and i did my commercial cross country from New Brunswick to Winnipeg return, all in a Cessna 150, even landed and stayed a few days at the Winnipeg Airport. Full disclaimer, I owned the aircraft and did not do my flight training via an FTU. I had a seasonal coworker at the time that was a Level 1 Flight Instructor. He did my training at no charge. But I'm also an AME, and maintained the aircraft myself. I would consider a ferry gig every now and then if it happened to present itself.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Some of this is an interesting read. I'm a newer CPL with 350ish hours and i did my commercial cross country from New Brunswick to Winnipeg return, all in a Cessna 150, even landed and stayed a few days at the Winnipeg Airport. Full disclaimer, I owned the aircraft and did not do my flight training via an FTU. I had a seasonal coworker at the time that was a Level 1 Flight Instructor. He did my training at no charge. But I'm also an AME, and maintained the aircraft myself. I would consider a ferry gig every now and then if it happened to present itself.

Your experience is not that of a typical new CPL who will have done all their training at a flying school with most of their instruction from a low time Cass 4 with no other experience. You have two critical skill set they won't have, significant cross country experience in areas away from you home base and and the ability to asses the airworthiness of any random airplane. Both of those are vital if you want to do ferry flying.

[digits_]

Some of this is an interesting read. I'm a newer CPL with 350ish hours and i did my commercial cross country from New Brunswick to Winnipeg return, all in a Cessna 150, even landed and stayed a few days at the Winnipeg Airport. Full disclaimer, I owned the aircraft and did not do my flight training via an FTU. I had a seasonal coworker at the time that was a Level 1 Flight Instructor. He did my training at no charge. But I'm also an AME, and maintained the aircraft myself. I would consider a ferry gig every now and then if it happened to present itself.

Your experience is not that of a typical new CPL who will have done all their training at a flying school with most of their instruction from a low time Cass 4 with no other experience. You have two critical skill set they won't have, significant cross country experience in areas away from you home base and and the ability to asses the airworthiness of any random airplane. Both of those are vital if you want to do ferry flying.

I think there's a whole lot less 'typical' CPLs than you'd think. Typically the pilots interested in ferrying aircraft jump at the chance of flying new types or doing long cross countries. Generally during the time building part of the CPL journey there's some time for that. Or once they are licensed they rent the plane to fly places. The experience of the instructor is irrelevant at that point. It's the solo part of the time building that can give you some experience.

Generally the pilots sticking to one type during training and building time in the circuit are not the type of pilots eyeing a ferry career.