Fill 'Er Up

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister

Post Reply
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7714
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Fill 'Er Up

Post by pelmet »

From TSB.....

C-FSKX, a Keewatin Air LP Beech BE-20 was operating as KEW205-M departed the Yellowknife
Airport (CYZF), NT, en route to Cambridge Bay Airport (CYCB), NU. Shortly after reaching their
planned cruise altitude, the flight crew carried out the mid-way check and realized that the flight
had departed with approximately 945 pounds of fuel where 3000 pounds of fuel was required. The
flight crew reduced power to achieve minimum fuel flow for cruise flight and diverted to the nearest
suitable airport, which was Ekati Aerodrome (CYOA), NT. The aircraft landed with approximately
266 pounds of fuel onboard.


Happened at our company a couple of times.

Personally, I like to mark it off on the flightplan at some point(always the same point in the pre-flight) to avoid such embarrassment.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TeePeeCreeper
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1156
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: in the bush

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

pelmet wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 9:05 am From TSB.....

C-FSKX, a Keewatin Air LP Beech BE-20 was operating as KEW205-M departed the Yellowknife
Airport (CYZF), NT, en route to Cambridge Bay Airport (CYCB), NU. Shortly after reaching their
planned cruise altitude, the flight crew carried out the mid-way check and realized that the flight
had departed with approximately 945 pounds of fuel where 3000 pounds of fuel was required. The
flight crew reduced power to achieve minimum fuel flow for cruise flight and diverted to the nearest
suitable airport, which was Ekati Aerodrome (CYOA), NT. The aircraft landed with approximately
266 pounds of fuel onboard.


Happened at our company a couple of times.

Personally, I like to mark it off on the flightplan at some point(always the same point in the pre-flight) to avoid such embarrassment.
Over the years I’ve only once almost started up before having that Homer Simpson voice after a fueler didn’t do their job and well I certainly learnt a lesson but the Swiss cheese factory bypassed me that day…

With that said, (human factors are a bitch!) how the hell do you get mid way to destination before thinking “this doesn’t look right”?!?

266 lbs of fuel remaining upon landing? Yikes.

TPC
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
‘Bob’
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1017
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:19 am

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by ‘Bob’ »

This is one of those things I’ve never had happen to me.

Is not checking fuel before start and top of climb a thing at these organizations?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
modi13
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 394
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:49 pm

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by modi13 »

This happened to Keewatin before, five years ago almost to the day: https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... c0038.html
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingnowherefast
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2386
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by goingnowherefast »

Gotta check the fuel gauges, not the computer.
---------- ADS -----------
 
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7714
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by pelmet »

‘Bob’ wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 8:38 pm This is one of those things I’ve never had happen to me.

Is not checking fuel before start and top of climb a thing at these organizations?
Several years ago, I started a thread called “A Top of Climb Check”. It suggested that at the top of climb, the pilot do a check of all the switches and gauges to ensure proper positions and indications.

As has happened several times to suggested techniques I have made, there were several others(most of whom seem to no longer post here) who aggressively challenged this idea. If I recall correctly, a reasoning was that this was outside the checklist or standard SOP, and doing something outside the checklist was inappropriate.

As had happened with other threads, it ended up in back and forth bickering and whoever was the moderator, decided to remove the entire thread instead of a few posts.

Perhaps the pilots on this particular flight never got to read my suggestion, or perhaps they were influenced by the responses. Glad the weather was good at Ekati.

Do a Top Of Climb Check.
---------- ADS -----------
 
cdnavater
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2568
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:25 am

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by cdnavater »

pelmet wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 5:05 am
‘Bob’ wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 8:38 pm This is one of those things I’ve never had happen to me.

Is not checking fuel before start and top of climb a thing at these organizations?
Several years ago, I started a thread called “A Top of Climb Check”. It suggested that at the top of climb, the pilot do a check of all the switches and gauges to ensure proper positions and indications.

As has happened several times to suggested techniques I have made, there were several others(most of whom seem to no longer post here) who aggressively challenged this idea. If I recall correctly, a reasoning was that this was outside the checklist or standard SOP, and doing something outside the checklist was inappropriate.

As had happened with other threads, it ended up in back and forth bickering and whoever was the moderator, decided to remove the entire thread instead of a few posts.

Perhaps the pilots on this particular flight never got to read my suggestion, or perhaps they were influenced by the responses. Glad the weather was good at Ekati.

Do a Top Of Climb Check.
Honestly, it’s kind of ridiculous to leave without enough fuel, while I agree there should be a TOC fuel check, finding out at that point you weren’t fueled up is too little too late and depending on how low might end up badly. You should know you have enough fuel before you leave the ramp.
At Jazz we do a fuel check at the gate and compare to fuel required on the before start check, most will do a BR fuel check at the threshold and then procedure is a TOC check and the wpts at regular intervals.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6756
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 5:05 am Several years ago, I started a thread called “A Top of Climb Check”. It suggested that at the top of climb, the pilot do a check of all the switches and gauges to ensure proper positions and indications.

Shortly after reaching their
planned cruise altitude
, the flight crew carried out the mid-way check and
If only they had noticed the low fuel twice at the same time, this incident would have had a different outcome :roll: :roll: :roll:
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
BeaverDreamer
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by BeaverDreamer »

pelmet wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 5:05 am
‘Bob’ wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 8:38 pm This is one of those things I’ve never had happen to me.

Is not checking fuel before start and top of climb a thing at these organizations?
Several years ago, I started a thread called “A Top of Climb Check”. It suggested that at the top of climb, the pilot do a check of all the switches and gauges to ensure proper positions and indications.

As has happened several times to suggested techniques I have made, there were several others(most of whom seem to no longer post here) who aggressively challenged this idea. If I recall correctly, a reasoning was that this was outside the checklist or standard SOP, and doing something outside the checklist was inappropriate.

As had happened with other threads, it ended up in back and forth bickering and whoever was the moderator, decided to remove the entire thread instead of a few posts.

Perhaps the pilots on this particular flight never got to read my suggestion, or perhaps they were influenced by the responses. Glad the weather was good at Ekati.

Do a Top Of Climb Check.
While I agree with your idea, I don’t agree with the way you present it. “ Shortly after reaching their
planned cruise altitude, the flight crew carried out the mid-way check and realized…”. It sounds to me like they did exactly what you are suggesting, and it is possible if you were flying using your expert technique that you may have discovered the issue at the exact same time as this crew.

Fatigue and Keewatin go hand in hand. No doubt it played a role here in my opinion.
---------- ADS -----------
 
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7714
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by pelmet »

BeaverDreamer wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:17 am
pelmet wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 5:05 am
‘Bob’ wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 8:38 pm This is one of those things I’ve never had happen to me.

Is not checking fuel before start and top of climb a thing at these organizations?
Several years ago, I started a thread called “A Top of Climb Check”. It suggested that at the top of climb, the pilot do a check of all the switches and gauges to ensure proper positions and indications.

As has happened several times to suggested techniques I have made, there were several others(most of whom seem to no longer post here) who aggressively challenged this idea. If I recall correctly, a reasoning was that this was outside the checklist or standard SOP, and doing something outside the checklist was inappropriate.

As had happened with other threads, it ended up in back and forth bickering and whoever was the moderator, decided to remove the entire thread instead of a few posts.

Perhaps the pilots on this particular flight never got to read my suggestion, or perhaps they were influenced by the responses. Glad the weather was good at Ekati.

Do a Top Of Climb Check.
While I agree with your idea, I don’t agree with the way you present it. “ Shortly after reaching their
planned cruise altitude, the flight crew carried out the mid-way check and realized…”. It sounds to me like they did exactly what you are suggesting, and it is possible if you were flying using your expert technique that you may have discovered the issue at the exact same time as this crew.

Fatigue and Keewatin go hand in hand. No doubt it played a role here in my opinion.
My "Expert Technique" also includes this from the original post....
pelmet wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2024 9:05 am Personally, I like to mark it off on the flightplan at some point(always the same point in the pre-flight) to avoid such embarrassment.
---------- ADS -----------
 
lownslow
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by lownslow »

Trying to remember how I used to prevent the same in my light turbine twin days. I think our OFP had lines for planned FOB, burn, and uptake on each leg so I’d just finish the math before getting in the plane. Is that not normal? Seems like having that and enforcing its use would be super cheap insurance against threads like this.

Once on board I’d deviate a hair from SOP and give a quick look at the fuel gauges immediately before hitting the start button. I forget the exact circumstances that set everything in motion but this did save my bacon once and it’s far less embarrassing to get out of the plane and order more fuel before starting the engines.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
‘Bob’
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1017
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:19 am

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by ‘Bob’ »

Yeah of course OFPs have fuel amount both for planning and weight and balance, but there can be a disconnect between expected and actual fuel. Like if each pilot thought the other ordered fuel or the truck didn’t come or the plane was misfuelled or something.

Thats why you need empirical evidence that fuel is indeed on board and that is going to functioning and accurate gauges in the plane combined with cross checking uplift on tickets.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6756
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by digits_ »

lownslow wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 3:36 pm Trying to remember how I used to prevent the same in my light turbine twin days. I think our OFP had lines for planned FOB, burn, and uptake on each leg so I’d just finish the math before getting in the plane. Is that not normal? Seems like having that and enforcing its use would be super cheap insurance against threads like this.
I doubt the problem here was that they made a math error and thought 900 lbs was enough.

The problem here likely was that they thought they had 3000 lbs on board but in reality only had about 900.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Dronepiper
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 267
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:22 pm

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by Dronepiper »

I have never flown a king air. How much time is 266lbs of fuel good for at a low altitude?
---------- ADS -----------
 
spruceair
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:16 pm

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by spruceair »

Dronepiper wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:47 pm I have never flown a king air. How much time is 266lbs of fuel good for at a low altitude?
Under 20 minutes until it gets very quiet.
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingnowherefast
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2386
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by goingnowherefast »

Not saying what happened here with the following statement.

A common error with fancy fuel computers is to order the fuel. 20 minutes later, hop in the plane, enter "3000" in the computer, takeoff and go flying. Nobody actually looks at the fuel gauges. Any fuel checks prior to departure are done by looking at the fuel computer. Sure it says 2950 after engine start, but it never matched what was actually in the tanks. The actual gauges never matched the fuel computer (FMS, G1000, whatever avionics is used to track fuel).
---------- ADS -----------
 
Eric Janson
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1359
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:44 am

Re: Fill 'Er Up

Post by Eric Janson »

I can't believe what I'm reading!

Fuel quantity has to be on the before start checklist - if it isn't you have a serious problem with your SOP (which should not have been approved imho).

Starting engines and taking off without even looking at your fuel gauges is Negligence and unacceptable imho.

Here's how it works at my company:-

When the flightcrew meet we discuss the fuel we want and we all have to agree before we order.

The fuel uplift is recorded in the Technical Logbook with a calculation that has to match what is on the gauges.

Fuel quantity is the 3rd item on the Before Start Checklist - needs to be crosschecked by both Pilots.

I spent last Winter operating to one of the remotest areas on the Planet - a 5.5 hour flight with no enroute airports - alternate was the origin airport. For these flights the fuel was a critical item.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”