Class 1 instructor Teach Class 4 NOT at FTU? Possible

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xplane
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Class 1 instructor Teach Class 4 NOT at FTU? Possible

Post by xplane »

Can a class 1 instructor, instruct me towards the class 4 instructor rating on a privately owned aircraft or does this need to be done within a flight training unit?

Can someone point me towards the CARs? Thank you
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Class 1 instructor Teach Class 4 NOT at FTU? Possible

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

As a flight instructor you should have a good working knowledge of the CAR's and in particular Parts 4,6 and 7.

When researching the CAR's you need to define the question. So go to Part 4 and look for what CAR's specifies for, the requirements of the flight instructor rating, the privileges of each level of instructor rating, the instructor requirements for teaching the instructor rating and the aircraft requirements for conducting flight training.

Post what you find and I will be happy to comment.
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xplane
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Re: Class 1 instructor Teach Class 4 NOT at FTU? Possible

Post by xplane »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 11:21 am As a flight instructor you should have a good working knowledge of the CAR's and in particular Parts 4,6 and 7.

When researching the CAR's you need to define the question. So go to Part 4 and look for what CAR's specifies for, the requirements of the flight instructor rating, the privileges of each level of instructor rating, the instructor requirements for teaching the instructor rating and the aircraft requirements for conducting flight training.

Post what you find and I will be happy to comment.
Hi Big Pistons Forever, Thank you for the comment. What I initially found is 406.03(b)(ii) and 406.03(b)(iii): From what I understand, if I am the owner (or fractional owner) of an aircraft OR I find an aircraft that someone is willing to rent to me (or sell a block of hours), I would not need to be in a FTU and can receive flight instruction for the issuance of a flight instructor class 4 rating from a class 1 instructor. For (iii), the aircraft needs to be at arm's length from the class 1 instructor, so I interpret that as meaning, the aircraft is not directly related to the class 1 instructor.

I approached a class 1 instructor to instruct me for my class 4 instructor rating and he told me he can't instruct me because he can't freelance and it needs to be part of a FTU. This doesn't seem to be the case looking at the CARs.

Here are the CARs:

406.03(b) the trainee is

(i) the owner, or a member of the family of the owner, of the aircraft used for training,

(ii) a director of a corporation that owns the aircraft used for training, and the training is other than toward obtaining a pilot permit — recreational or a private pilot licence, or

(iii) using an aircraft that has been obtained from a person who is at arm’s length from the flight instructor, and the training is other than toward obtaining a pilot permit — recreational or a private pilot licence.

Thank you so much :D
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Ruger Princess
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Re: Class 1 instructor Teach Class 4 NOT at FTU? Possible

Post by Ruger Princess »

xplane wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 10:53 am Can a class 1 instructor, instruct me towards the class 4 instructor rating on a privately owned aircraft or does this need to be done within a flight training unit?

Can someone point me towards the CARs? Thank you
From my Class 1 who is also a TC examiner and FS owner.

Cheers!


"Yes, a Class 1 can teach the Class 4 on a privately owned aircraft, as long as the insurance allows for it, the aircraft is airworthy (within annual) and has all of the required instrumentation and  shoulder harnesses installed for the front 2 seats.  The aircraft also has to be spinnable, or a spinnable aircraft used for the flight test."
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xplane
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Re: Class 1 instructor Teach Class 4 NOT at FTU? Possible

Post by xplane »

Ruger Princess wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:25 pm
xplane wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 10:53 am Can a class 1 instructor, instruct me towards the class 4 instructor rating on a privately owned aircraft or does this need to be done within a flight training unit?

Can someone point me towards the CARs? Thank you
From my Class 1 who is also a TC examiner and FS owner.

Cheers!


"Yes, a Class 1 can teach the Class 4 on a privately owned aircraft, as long as the insurance allows for it, the aircraft is airworthy (within annual) and has all of the required instrumentation and  shoulder harnesses installed for the front 2 seats.  The aircraft also has to be spinnable, or a spinnable aircraft used for the flight test."

Thanks for the reply Ruger Princess, What if the airplane is not privately owned and is owned as part of an FTU not associated with the Class 1 instructor? To me it sounds like the CARs (406.03(2)(b)(iii)) don't have a problem with that, but the FTUs might have their own rules
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Ruger Princess
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Re: Class 1 instructor Teach Class 4 NOT at FTU? Possible

Post by Ruger Princess »

xplane wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 1:04 pm
Ruger Princess wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:25 pm
xplane wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 10:53 am Can a class 1 instructor, instruct me towards the class 4 instructor rating on a privately owned aircraft or does this need to be done within a flight training unit?

Can someone point me towards the CARs? Thank you
From my Class 1 who is also a TC examiner and FS owner.

Cheers!


"Yes, a Class 1 can teach the Class 4 on a privately owned aircraft, as long as the insurance allows for it, the aircraft is airworthy (within annual) and has all of the required instrumentation and  shoulder harnesses installed for the front 2 seats.  The aircraft also has to be spinnable, or a spinnable aircraft used for the flight test."

Thanks for the reply Ruger Princess, What if the airplane is not privately owned and is owned as part of an FTU not associated with the Class 1 instructor? To me it sounds like the CARs (406.03(2)(b)(iii)) don't have a problem with that, but the FTUs might have their own rules
Last answer lol. Can't use my Class 1 for everything on AVCANADA. :rolleyes:

"Yes, they can do that as well, as long as the flight school agrees to it. Usually in this case, both the student or the instructor will be required to be checked out on the aircraft before the FTU would allow this."


Cheers bud! 👊
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xplane
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Re: Class 1 instructor Teach Class 4 NOT at FTU? Possible

Post by xplane »

Ruger Princess wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 2:07 pm
xplane wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 1:04 pm
Ruger Princess wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 12:25 pm

From my Class 1 who is also a TC examiner and FS owner.

Cheers!


"Yes, a Class 1 can teach the Class 4 on a privately owned aircraft, as long as the insurance allows for it, the aircraft is airworthy (within annual) and has all of the required instrumentation and  shoulder harnesses installed for the front 2 seats.  The aircraft also has to be spinnable, or a spinnable aircraft used for the flight test."

Thanks for the reply Ruger Princess, What if the airplane is not privately owned and is owned as part of an FTU not associated with the Class 1 instructor? To me it sounds like the CARs (406.03(2)(b)(iii)) don't have a problem with that, but the FTUs might have their own rules
Last answer lol. Can't use my Class 1 for everything on AVCANADA. :rolleyes:

"Yes, they can do that as well, as long as the flight school agrees to it. Usually in this case, both the student or the instructor will be required to be checked out on the aircraft before the FTU would allow this."


Cheers bud! 👊
YOU'RE THE BEST MVP HAHAHAHA XD
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Ruger Princess
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Re: Class 1 instructor Teach Class 4 NOT at FTU? Possible

Post by Ruger Princess »

xplane wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 2:08 pm
Ruger Princess wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 2:07 pm
xplane wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 1:04 pm


Thanks for the reply Ruger Princess, What if the airplane is not privately owned and is owned as part of an FTU not associated with the Class 1 instructor? To me it sounds like the CARs (406.03(2)(b)(iii)) don't have a problem with that, but the FTUs might have their own rules
Last answer lol. Can't use my Class 1 for everything on AVCANADA. :rolleyes:

"Yes, they can do that as well, as long as the flight school agrees to it. Usually in this case, both the student or the instructor will be required to be checked out on the aircraft before the FTU would allow this."


Cheers bud! 👊
YOU'RE THE BEST MVP HAHAHAHA XD
Lol MOP? 😁🏈😉
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Mdoggydog
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Re: Class 1 instructor Teach Class 4 NOT at FTU? Possible

Post by Mdoggydog »

Does this also apply for the supervision portion of the Class 4? Can a Class 1 or 2 supervise a Class 4 instructor instructing students on an aircraft owned by the student? 421.62 doesn't mention an FTU being required.

Has anybody done this, hired a class 1 or 2 for the rating and supervision. Basically becoming a Class 3 without a FTU?
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tsgarp
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Re: Class 1 instructor Teach Class 4 NOT at FTU? Possible

Post by tsgarp »

Mdoggydog wrote: Sat Jun 15, 2024 2:11 pm Does this also apply for the supervision portion of the Class 4? Can a Class 1 or 2 supervise a Class 4 instructor instructing students on an aircraft owned by the student? 421.62 doesn't mention an FTU being required.

Has anybody done this, hired a class 1 or 2 for the rating and supervision. Basically becoming a Class 3 without a FTU?
No. CARs say Class 4 must work at OTU. The only exception is teaching on ultra lights; no requirements for supervision then.
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Bede
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Re: Class 1 instructor Teach Class 4 NOT at FTU? Possible

Post by Bede »

A class 2 can't supervise a class 4 outside an FTU, but a student can bring their own plane to an FTU and be taught by a class 4 under the operational control of an FTU.
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Mdoggydog
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Re: Class 1 instructor Teach Class 4 NOT at FTU? Possible

Post by Mdoggydog »

Mind pointing me to the CARs that say that?

I've read 425.21,421.69, 421.62 and there is no mention of that requirement.
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Mdoggydog
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Re: Class 1 instructor Teach Class 4 NOT at FTU? Possible

Post by Mdoggydog »

Ah shoot, I found it.

Class 4 Supervision Requirement
401.62 Subject to paragraph 401.69(e), no holder of a Class 4 flight instructor rating — aeroplane or a Class 4 flight instructor rating — helicopter shall exercise the privileges accorded by that rating unless the holder

(a) is conducting the training in accordance with a flight training unit operator certificate; and
(b) is under the supervision of a supervising instructor of the flight training unit.

SOR/2001-49, s. 22
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