What is the acceptable industry discount on Canadian pilots?

[FelixGustof]

Question

[goingnowherefast]

To recover from the abuse we've tolerated, I almost clicked "worth more".

The shortage is due to the fact that few high-school kids want to enter this profession. The scheduling sucks, pay is mediocre, risk is high (fail a PPC, loose medical). The airlines made the profession undesirable and now they need to up the game to fix this profession's reputation. To fix it quickly, we'd need to be worth more initially. Maybe settling down to par after a few years of "reputation damage recovery" pay.

[‘Bob’]

There needs to be some sort of matrix involved.

The conditions in the USA did not always exist. Indeed there was a time when US pilots were paid as bad or worse.. and they still are outside of 121 where the 1500 hour rule doesn’t apply.

The first part would be to ask how many pilots in Canada made it to 705 while not meeting US Part 121 requirements. Each one of those pilots adds to the discount.

Second is to ask how many pilots got their hours in ways that it’s difficult or impossible to do in the US relative to their population size like float flying, medevac flying, flying passenger aircraft with 19 seats or fewer, etc. Each of those pilots adds to the discount. It’s far easier to start out as a pilot in Canada vs the US.

Third would be asking where you would go to find a better job inside your own country. Vote with your feet but to where? High wages are for attraction and retention. Canadian airlines don’t really have that problem to the degree the US does. 703/704 does which is why they are paying a lot more than they used to.

Finally are the larger relative operating costs and thinner routes Canada has. Canadian pilots say they do the same flying US pilots do when they definitely do not. US pilots aren’t flying a half-full Q or CRJ for hours to some northern sh** hole as a money-losing feeder route even at the exorbitant prices charged. They aren’t getting a healthy four figure fuel callout and deice bill for said flight.

[ShillBill]

Bob,

You're well groomed shill. Spent too much time at business school and next to zero time understanding a functional union

You're probably former union member at Air Canada that had briefing after briefing on why you need to eat the next round of concessions. Cheap pilots is essential to growth they say...

I assume this poll is for Canadian major airlines. I'm personally not too worried about clapped out Metros in Northern Ontario.

Fact is WestJet/Air Canada is drunk on cheap pilots. They can afford to pay more. They just don't want to and they won't as long as they got shills waving pompoms to how the industry was 10 - 20 years ago

The world has changed man. The industry has. And really the only thing stopping the Canadian discount is the psychology of accepting that it is a fable

There should be ZERO DISCOUNT on Canadian pilots. Period

[FNGYYZ]

Honest question:

When was the last time a major US airline was allowed to strike?

Under the Railway Labor Act, can they?

So US ALPA pilot unions have been extremely successful in their campaigns without striking...why can't Canadian pilots with their better leverage under the Canadian Labour Code properly get at least in the same league?

[Torontomaplelaughs]

Honest question:

When was the last time a major US airline was allowed to strike?

Under the Railway Labor Act, can they?

So US ALPA pilot unions have been extremely successful in their campaigns without striking...why can't Canadian pilots with their better leverage under the Canadian Labour Code properly get at least in the same league?

One reason was ACPA. The leaders of the industry were a bunch of shills that led contracts into the toilet and signed a 10 yrs deal no less

The other reason is WJ themselves went through a shill period as well. A failed union vote. Then allowed Swoop.

Luckily we pulled it together this time around to get some solid gains for the pilot group

Encore really fucked it up though

[A310Heavy]

It looks like Encore pilots are happy with about 50% discount

They needed to capture some Kamloops flying

[ReturnoftheMike]

Did you Pathetic Fools say "Capture the Flying?"

It is with great joy I see a member of the treasonous traitors of the South following this mantra. This Creed lives in the halls of ACPA along with the philosophy to maximize your OT when you got loser bottom feeding furloughs lying around on the streets

If a pilot group is seeking an ACPA franchise opportunity, please inquire via a DM or through my app. I'm still looking to peddle that off to a corp

Regards, Mike

[dumpsterfire]

There needs to be some sort of matrix involved.

The conditions in the USA did not always exist. Indeed there was a time when US pilots were paid as bad or worse.. and they still are outside of 121 where the 1500 hour rule doesn’t apply.

The first part would be to ask how many pilots in Canada made it to 705 while not meeting US Part 121 requirements. Each one of those pilots adds to the discount.

Second is to ask how many pilots got their hours in ways that it’s difficult or impossible to do in the US relative to their population size like float flying, medevac flying, flying passenger aircraft with 19 seats or fewer, etc. Each of those pilots adds to the discount. It’s far easier to start out as a pilot in Canada vs the US.

Third would be asking where you would go to find a better job inside your own country. Vote with your feet but to where? High wages are for attraction and retention. Canadian airlines don’t really have that problem to the degree the US does. 703/704 does which is why they are paying a lot more than they used to.

Finally are the larger relative operating costs and thinner routes Canada has. Canadian pilots say they do the same flying US pilots do when they definitely do not. US pilots aren’t flying a half-full Q or CRJ for hours to some northern sh** hole as a money-losing feeder route even at the exorbitant prices charged. They aren’t getting a healthy four figure fuel callout and deice bill for said flight.

Bob,

Yes / No

Are you on an AC DB pension?

Are you concerned a true World Class Contract that brings pilots into the same league as United/Delta will affect your pension?

[stall]

There needs to be some sort of matrix involved.

The conditions in the USA did not always exist. Indeed there was a time when US pilots were paid as bad or worse.. and they still are outside of 121 where the 1500 hour rule doesn’t apply.

The first part would be to ask how many pilots in Canada made it to 705 while not meeting US Part 121 requirements. Each one of those pilots adds to the discount.

Second is to ask how many pilots got their hours in ways that it’s difficult or impossible to do in the US relative to their population size like float flying, medevac flying, flying passenger aircraft with 19 seats or fewer, etc. Each of those pilots adds to the discount. It’s far easier to start out as a pilot in Canada vs the US.

Third would be asking where you would go to find a better job inside your own country. Vote with your feet but to where? High wages are for attraction and retention. Canadian airlines don’t really have that problem to the degree the US does. 703/704 does which is why they are paying a lot more than they used to.

Finally are the larger relative operating costs and thinner routes Canada has. Canadian pilots say they do the same flying US pilots do when they definitely do not. US pilots aren’t flying a half-full Q or CRJ for hours to some northern sh** hole as a money-losing feeder route even at the exorbitant prices charged. They aren’t getting a healthy four figure fuel callout and deice bill for said flight.

Lol Bob! What do you think when you read a quote like this from an AC Executive?

"Galardo said Sixth Freedom fares are vital to Air Canada’s strategy.

“We have three hubs,” he said. “In importance, it’s Toronto number one, Vancouver number two and Montreal number three. The beauty of these three hubs is they all complement each other in terms of demographics but also geography. We have neighbours to the south that are 10 times the size of us. We’ve got good geography and optimal flight paths.”

The Executives even compare themselves to US airlines for their compensation LOL

[thepoors]

There needs to be some sort of matrix involved.

The conditions in the USA did not always exist. Indeed there was a time when US pilots were paid as bad or worse.. and they still are outside of 121 where the 1500 hour rule doesn’t apply.

The first part would be to ask how many pilots in Canada made it to 705 while not meeting US Part 121 requirements. Each one of those pilots adds to the discount.

Second is to ask how many pilots got their hours in ways that it’s difficult or impossible to do in the US relative to their population size like float flying, medevac flying, flying passenger aircraft with 19 seats or fewer, etc. Each of those pilots adds to the discount. It’s far easier to start out as a pilot in Canada vs the US.

Third would be asking where you would go to find a better job inside your own country. Vote with your feet but to where? High wages are for attraction and retention. Canadian airlines don’t really have that problem to the degree the US does. 703/704 does which is why they are paying a lot more than they used to.

Finally are the larger relative operating costs and thinner routes Canada has. Canadian pilots say they do the same flying US pilots do when they definitely do not. US pilots aren’t flying a half-full Q or CRJ for hours to some northern sh** hole as a money-losing feeder route even at the exorbitant prices charged. They aren’t getting a healthy four figure fuel callout and deice bill for said flight.

This is completely ignorant, out of touch, and just straight up wrong on several counts.

1) The job market for pilots in the US is massive. It's not difficult at all to get a job starting out as a pilot. There are so many more opportunities than a handful of bush/medevac/northern operators. And many of them pay quite well. The corporate/charter side is also so much bigger than in Canada it's almost no comparison - with some of the big players like Netjets and Flexjets being real competitors for the airlines in terms of pilot attraction.

2) AC hasn't yet admitted it, because they are operating under the same flawed logic you're a proponent of, but they are having recruitment issues. They can't fill the ground schools they need. The latest bogus bid notwithstanding they are going to be deep in the hole if this contract doesn't get sorted out (with big improvement) very soon.

3) The US has Essential Air Service. Hundreds of airports that have mandatory airline service, which the government subsidizes. Considering the oligopoly that AC and WJ enjoy over air travel in Canada, I don't think any of the routes they are operating are much of a financial burden. YYZ-YVR is one of the most profitable airline routes in the world.

[Heavy Rayn]

There needs to be some sort of matrix involved.

The conditions in the USA did not always exist. Indeed there was a time when US pilots were paid as bad or worse.. and they still are outside of 121 where the 1500 hour rule doesn’t apply.

The first part would be to ask how many pilots in Canada made it to 705 while not meeting US Part 121 requirements. Each one of those pilots adds to the discount.

Second is to ask how many pilots got their hours in ways that it’s difficult or impossible to do in the US relative to their population size like float flying, medevac flying, flying passenger aircraft with 19 seats or fewer, etc. Each of those pilots adds to the discount. It’s far easier to start out as a pilot in Canada vs the US.

Third would be asking where you would go to find a better job inside your own country. Vote with your feet but to where? High wages are for attraction and retention. Canadian airlines don’t really have that problem to the degree the US does. 703/704 does which is why they are paying a lot more than they used to.

Finally are the larger relative operating costs and thinner routes Canada has. Canadian pilots say they do the same flying US pilots do when they definitely do not. US pilots aren’t flying a half-full Q or CRJ for hours to some northern sh** hole as a money-losing feeder route even at the exorbitant prices charged. They aren’t getting a healthy four figure fuel callout and deice bill for said flight.

This is completely ignorant, out of touch, and just straight up wrong on several counts.

1) The job market for pilots in the US is massive. It's not difficult at all to get a job starting out as a pilot. There are so many more opportunities than a handful of bush/medevac/northern operators. And many of them pay quite well. The corporate/charter side is also so much bigger than in Canada it's almost no comparison - with some of the big players like Netjets and Flexjets being real competitors for the airlines in terms of pilot attraction.

2) AC hasn't yet admitted it, because they are operating under the same flawed logic you're a proponent of, but they are having recruitment issues. They can't fill the ground schools they need. The latest bogus bid notwithstanding they are going to be deep in the hole if this contract doesn't get sorted out (with big improvement) very soon.

3) The US has Essential Air Service. Hundreds of airports that have mandatory airline service, which the government subsidizes. Considering the oligopoly that AC and WJ enjoy over air travel in Canada, I don't think any of the routes they are operating are much of a financial burden. YYZ-YVR is one of the most profitable airline routes in the world.

The comment on how Netjets is a real competitor for the airlines in the states is beyond accurate. I was speaking to a Phenom captain with netjets not more than a couple of weeks ago at skyservice in YYZ, I had a few questions for him. Schedule and pay being the most prudent. With the new payscale they have introduced recently at netjets he showed me that he was on track to make $435,000 USD this year without any overtime. Mind you this is working the CC76 schedule which is 19 days a month of work, not too much unlike the current schedules at AC. This gentleman makes more than likely any Canadian pilot and he flys the smallest aircraft in Netjets fleet. An aircraft with no APU or TR’s and under 20000 lbs MTOW. Mind boggling money and disparity compared to pilot pay cheques in Canada

[DanWEC]

Not to mention many of the Netjet guys are home-based with confirmed airfare.