What is the acceptable industry discount on Canadian pilots?
Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2024 1:17 pm
Question
One reason was ACPA. The leaders of the industry were a bunch of shills that led contracts into the toilet and signed a 10 yrs deal no lessFNGYYZ wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 9:08 pm Honest question:
When was the last time a major US airline was allowed to strike?
Under the Railway Labor Act, can they?
So US ALPA pilot unions have been extremely successful in their campaigns without striking...why can't Canadian pilots with their better leverage under the Canadian Labour Code properly get at least in the same league?
Bob,‘Bob’ wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:55 pm There needs to be some sort of matrix involved.
The conditions in the USA did not always exist. Indeed there was a time when US pilots were paid as bad or worse.. and they still are outside of 121 where the 1500 hour rule doesn’t apply.
The first part would be to ask how many pilots in Canada made it to 705 while not meeting US Part 121 requirements. Each one of those pilots adds to the discount.
Second is to ask how many pilots got their hours in ways that it’s difficult or impossible to do in the US relative to their population size like float flying, medevac flying, flying passenger aircraft with 19 seats or fewer, etc. Each of those pilots adds to the discount. It’s far easier to start out as a pilot in Canada vs the US.
Third would be asking where you would go to find a better job inside your own country. Vote with your feet but to where? High wages are for attraction and retention. Canadian airlines don’t really have that problem to the degree the US does. 703/704 does which is why they are paying a lot more than they used to.
Finally are the larger relative operating costs and thinner routes Canada has. Canadian pilots say they do the same flying US pilots do when they definitely do not. US pilots aren’t flying a half-full Q or CRJ for hours to some northern sh** hole as a money-losing feeder route even at the exorbitant prices charged. They aren’t getting a healthy four figure fuel callout and deice bill for said flight.
Lol Bob! What do you think when you read a quote like this from an AC Executive?‘Bob’ wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:55 pm There needs to be some sort of matrix involved.
The conditions in the USA did not always exist. Indeed there was a time when US pilots were paid as bad or worse.. and they still are outside of 121 where the 1500 hour rule doesn’t apply.
The first part would be to ask how many pilots in Canada made it to 705 while not meeting US Part 121 requirements. Each one of those pilots adds to the discount.
Second is to ask how many pilots got their hours in ways that it’s difficult or impossible to do in the US relative to their population size like float flying, medevac flying, flying passenger aircraft with 19 seats or fewer, etc. Each of those pilots adds to the discount. It’s far easier to start out as a pilot in Canada vs the US.
Third would be asking where you would go to find a better job inside your own country. Vote with your feet but to where? High wages are for attraction and retention. Canadian airlines don’t really have that problem to the degree the US does. 703/704 does which is why they are paying a lot more than they used to.
Finally are the larger relative operating costs and thinner routes Canada has. Canadian pilots say they do the same flying US pilots do when they definitely do not. US pilots aren’t flying a half-full Q or CRJ for hours to some northern sh** hole as a money-losing feeder route even at the exorbitant prices charged. They aren’t getting a healthy four figure fuel callout and deice bill for said flight.
This is completely ignorant, out of touch, and just straight up wrong on several counts.‘Bob’ wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:55 pm There needs to be some sort of matrix involved.
The conditions in the USA did not always exist. Indeed there was a time when US pilots were paid as bad or worse.. and they still are outside of 121 where the 1500 hour rule doesn’t apply.
The first part would be to ask how many pilots in Canada made it to 705 while not meeting US Part 121 requirements. Each one of those pilots adds to the discount.
Second is to ask how many pilots got their hours in ways that it’s difficult or impossible to do in the US relative to their population size like float flying, medevac flying, flying passenger aircraft with 19 seats or fewer, etc. Each of those pilots adds to the discount. It’s far easier to start out as a pilot in Canada vs the US.
Third would be asking where you would go to find a better job inside your own country. Vote with your feet but to where? High wages are for attraction and retention. Canadian airlines don’t really have that problem to the degree the US does. 703/704 does which is why they are paying a lot more than they used to.
Finally are the larger relative operating costs and thinner routes Canada has. Canadian pilots say they do the same flying US pilots do when they definitely do not. US pilots aren’t flying a half-full Q or CRJ for hours to some northern sh** hole as a money-losing feeder route even at the exorbitant prices charged. They aren’t getting a healthy four figure fuel callout and deice bill for said flight.
The comment on how Netjets is a real competitor for the airlines in the states is beyond accurate. I was speaking to a Phenom captain with netjets not more than a couple of weeks ago at skyservice in YYZ, I had a few questions for him. Schedule and pay being the most prudent. With the new payscale they have introduced recently at netjets he showed me that he was on track to make $435,000 USD this year without any overtime. Mind you this is working the CC76 schedule which is 19 days a month of work, not too much unlike the current schedules at AC. This gentleman makes more than likely any Canadian pilot and he flys the smallest aircraft in Netjets fleet. An aircraft with no APU or TR’s and under 20000 lbs MTOW. Mind boggling money and disparity compared to pilot pay cheques in Canadathepoors wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 2:52 pmThis is completely ignorant, out of touch, and just straight up wrong on several counts.‘Bob’ wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2024 8:55 pm There needs to be some sort of matrix involved.
The conditions in the USA did not always exist. Indeed there was a time when US pilots were paid as bad or worse.. and they still are outside of 121 where the 1500 hour rule doesn’t apply.
The first part would be to ask how many pilots in Canada made it to 705 while not meeting US Part 121 requirements. Each one of those pilots adds to the discount.
Second is to ask how many pilots got their hours in ways that it’s difficult or impossible to do in the US relative to their population size like float flying, medevac flying, flying passenger aircraft with 19 seats or fewer, etc. Each of those pilots adds to the discount. It’s far easier to start out as a pilot in Canada vs the US.
Third would be asking where you would go to find a better job inside your own country. Vote with your feet but to where? High wages are for attraction and retention. Canadian airlines don’t really have that problem to the degree the US does. 703/704 does which is why they are paying a lot more than they used to.
Finally are the larger relative operating costs and thinner routes Canada has. Canadian pilots say they do the same flying US pilots do when they definitely do not. US pilots aren’t flying a half-full Q or CRJ for hours to some northern sh** hole as a money-losing feeder route even at the exorbitant prices charged. They aren’t getting a healthy four figure fuel callout and deice bill for said flight.
1) The job market for pilots in the US is massive. It's not difficult at all to get a job starting out as a pilot. There are so many more opportunities than a handful of bush/medevac/northern operators. And many of them pay quite well. The corporate/charter side is also so much bigger than in Canada it's almost no comparison - with some of the big players like Netjets and Flexjets being real competitors for the airlines in terms of pilot attraction.
2) AC hasn't yet admitted it, because they are operating under the same flawed logic you're a proponent of, but they are having recruitment issues. They can't fill the ground schools they need. The latest bogus bid notwithstanding they are going to be deep in the hole if this contract doesn't get sorted out (with big improvement) very soon.
3) The US has Essential Air Service. Hundreds of airports that have mandatory airline service, which the government subsidizes. Considering the oligopoly that AC and WJ enjoy over air travel in Canada, I don't think any of the routes they are operating are much of a financial burden. YYZ-YVR is one of the most profitable airline routes in the world.