IATRA Questions

[Pookie]

Hi all,

Not so new to Avcanada, but finally did get myself registered.

I was wondering if anyone could answer some IATRA questions for me. Somewhat training related-but more along the TC Standards...

The Citation II 550 is deemed by Transport Canada to be a 'Minimum Two-Crew' aircraft. If I understand correctly,
aircraft requiring two crew, over 12500 lbs, would require a first-officer to have his IATRA; and further more, would not be allowed
to captain the aircraft.
>
> My questions:
>
> 1) Is the statement above true, in its entirety?
>
> 2) If the aircraft is listed as having a higher than 12500lbs MTOW (eg 13500lbs), yet this weight is actually not exceeded, is an
IATRA required?
>
> 3) If the aircraft is listed as a minimum two-crew, yet is under 12500lbs, are FO hours loggable(word invent)?
>
> 4) If the aircraft is listed as a minimum two-crew, yet is under 12500lbs, is an ATPL required to captain?
>
> 5) If the aircraft is deemed a single-crew, (Caravan) but the operator has designated it a two-crew, are those FO hours loggable? And furthermore, can one Captian this aircraft without an ATPL?
>
> I really do appreciate anyone taking the time to answer my questions.

All the best-

[Clodhopper]

IATRA is also require for any aircraft having a cruising speed in excess of 250 kts and a Vso greater than 80...if my memory serves correctly.

And there are also requirements for number of seats too....cant recall the numbers right now.

In this case, however; we are dealing with the two-crew certified operations, which automatically requires an IATRA. Even if weight is below 12,500, and performance is "low".

As for the questions:

1) As far as it seems, yes true.

2) Listed MTOW is the limit, even if it isn't exceeded for a particular flight. i.e. the requirement for an IATRA doesn't change flight-by-flight.

3) Yes FO is "loggable" if the a/c is a min. two crew and you have your IATRA, even if its below MTOW for that flight.

4) Not sure about the ATPL, I believe if its certified as two-crew you have to have an ATPL to Captain, or if its over 12,500lbs...

5) Yes, if the a/c is certified as Two-Crew, you can log FO time. I think Cloud Air has a two-crew ops for their vans...

[Hedley]

Met a guy once who was flying an N-registered Citation V single-pilot ... sitting at an airport in Canada.

So, if it's got C letters painted on the side, you need two pilots, but if it's got N letters painted on the side, you only need one pilot.

My question is ... how does the aircraft tell what is painted on it?

[Aeros]

IATRA is also require for any aircraft having a cruising speed in excess of 250 kts and a Vso greater than 80...if my memory serves correctly.

Unfortunately your memmory is up to no good....

I think that you are thinking about a high performance aeroplane, which:

with respect to a rating, means
(a) an aeroplane that is specified in the minimum flight crew document as requiring only one pilot and that has a maximum speed (Vne) of 250 KIAS or greater or a stall speed (Vso) of 80 KIAS or greater

For that rating the IATRA is NOT required.

[Aeros]

The Citation II 550 is deemed by Transport Canada to be a 'Minimum Two-Crew' aircraft. If I understand correctly,
aircraft requiring two crew, over 12500 lbs, would require a first-officer to have his IATRA; and further more, would not be allowed
to captain the aircraft.
>
> My questions:
>
> 1) Is the statement above true, in its entirety?

Not totally true if you want to split hairs..

Since the aircraft is a two crew aircraft you require a two-crew type rating to act as either Captain or co-pilot. To get that type rating you need to write the IATRA.

If the aircraft is being operated in a Commercial Air Service then the Co-pilot could hold either a CPL or an ATPL (CAR 401.30(1)(c)(ii) for the CPL or CAR 401.34(2)(b) for the ATPL). The Captain would need to hold an ATPL (CAR 401.34(2)(a)). If you were operating the aircraft privately you could act as either PIC or co-pilot with a simple PPL (CAR 401.26(a)). The only thing that will likely get you on the private side of things is that once you start transporting passengers in that private aircraft you then fall in the CAR 604 world and I would imagine that the CBAA folks require more than a PPL to get their blessing (which is required).

In your example the aircraft GTOW has no bearing. If it was less than 12.5 you would still need to adhere to the above since it's a two-crew aeroplane.

2) If the aircraft is listed as having a higher than 12500lbs MTOW (eg 13500lbs), yet this weight is actually not exceeded, is an IATRA required?

As above, the issue isn't the weight. Since it is a two-crew machine you need that type rating. To get a two-crew type rating you need to have written the IATRA.

3) If the aircraft is listed as a minimum two-crew, yet is under 12500lbs, are FO hours loggable(word invent)?

Yes. But again, to act as an FO in this case you need to have the type rating for the aircraft.

4) If the aircraft is listed as a minimum two-crew, yet is under 12500lbs, is an ATPL required to captain?

In the world of a Commercial Air Service -- YES (CAR 401.34(2)(a)). If it's a private aircraft -- again, not carrying passengers (so you avoid the 604 rules) a PPL is good enough to be Captain (CAR 401.26(a)). The CBAA stipulates the requirements for the CAR 604 operations (Private operations carrying passengers). I am not sure what they require for the Captain.

5) If the aircraft is deemed a single-crew, (Caravan) but the operator has designated it a two-crew, are those FO hours loggable? And furthermore, can one Captian this aircraft without an ATPL?

If this is happening in the CAR 604 world or a Commercial Air Service then you can log the time as long as:
a) their Ops Manual outlines the two crew operations, SOP etc...;
b) you have gone through the company training programme on the aircraft; and
c) you are qualified and current on the aircraft (PPC/PCC).

Since the aircraft is certified as a single pilot aeroplane the Captain does NOT need an ATPL -- a CPL will do (CAR 401.30(1)(c)(i)). Again, if it's a private Caravan (not covered by CAR 604) then a PPL will do to act as Captain and the FO time is not loggable.

[Pookie]

Wow- thnx all for the speedy responses.

Aero-I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.

Are you 100% about your answers? Your explanantion is exactly what I had intially thought. However, I questioned myself after I was led to believe different by some guys who recently were hired by Georgian and ?.

Pilot #1 - Was hired as an FO for the Caravan (TC designated single-crew, operated by Georgian as two-crew). He has not his IATRA. He is convinced (supported by Georgian), that he can fly right-seat, log co-pilot hours; all without the IATRA.

Pilot # 2- My instructor- claims that he has a job offer, wont tell me which airline/operator until it is secured, but on an aircraft that requires two-crew by TC, yet is under 12500lbs and thus-can fly right seat, log co-pilot hours; all without the IATRA.

I believe more you, then these two guys; but its hard not to listen to them when one is your instructor and both are getting jobs where the company is in accordnace with their take on regulations.

I'm more confused now.

[Aeros]

Wow- thnx all for the speedy responses.

Aero-I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.

Are you 100% about your answers? Your explanantion is exactly what I had intially thought. However, I questioned myself after I was led to believe different by some guys who recently were hired by Georgian and ?.

I'm as sure as I am going to get (the only thing that I forgot to include was the ATPL exam note a little lower in this post). That was why I put in the CAR references -- if you don't belive me you can read through the applicable regs for yourself.

Pilot #1 - Was hired as an FO for the Caravan (TC designated single-crew, operated by Georgian as two-crew). He has not his IATRA. He is convinced (supported by Georgian), that he can fly right-seat, log co-pilot hours; all without the IATRA.

Your friend (and Georgian) are correct. Georgian does have approval and SOPs in their Ops Manual for two crew ops on the Caravan. The IATRA is only required when you are getting a type rating for an aeroplane that requires two crewmembers through certification requirements. Once your friend completes his training and has a PCC on the aircraft he can log FO time. He doesn't need a type rating (since it's a single-pilot aeroplane) hence he doesn't need to write the IATRA.

I believe that I supported this point in my earlier post -- sorry if I wasn't clear then.

Pilot # 2- My instructor- claims that he has a job offer, wont tell me which airline/operator until it is secured, but on an aircraft that requires two-crew by TC, yet is under 12500lbs and thus-can fly right seat, log co-pilot hours; all without the IATRA.

It sounds like your instructor is about to be in for a potentially unfortunate surprise. To act as a crew member in a two-crew aircraft you require a type rating. To get that type rating you need to write the IATRA exam.

There is an exception -- I meant to put that in my earlier post but I forgot by the time that I got to the end. If you have written both of the ATPL exams (SAMRA and SARON) you don't need to write the IATRA. This may be what your instructor means. If he has recently written those two exams (or already holds an ATPL) then he does not need to write the IATRA.

Unless your instructor has written either the two ATPL exams or the IATRA then he will not be able to act as an FO on an aircraft that has a minimum flight crew of two pilots (since he can't get the type rating) (CAR 421.40(3)(a)(i)(A),(B) or (C)) . If he can't even be an FO then there is no way that he can log the time......

[Pookie]

Thanks, Aeros. I do believe you, even without the CARs supporting you--it is also what I had initially thought. On the Pilot Career Centre website, there is a blurb which reads:

IATRA - the "IATRA" stands for Intermediate Airline Transport Rating. This Rating is similar to the ATPL in that the required book knowledge and examinations are very similar. The time requirements are much lower for the IATRA and allow low time pilots with a bare Multi-Engine Instrument Rating and a Commercial Pilot Licence to fly heavier aircraft (over 12500 lbs) that require 2 Crew by Transport Canada regulations - example aircraft would be the Raytheon BE1900 Turboprop, the Fairchild Metroliner, etc.

That statement being quite clear--I question, what is the requirement for Commercial Pilots to fly aircraft under 12500? My answer to this question is that Transport Canada deems all aircraft over 12, 500lbs to be a two-crew. Thus, elminating the question about aircraft that are two-crew designates under 12, 500. <----If thats not true, then what is the answer to that question?

[BTD]

IATRA stands for Individual Aircraft Type Rating.

[Ralliart]

Don't mean to sound like an ass or anything, but why not just write the silly exam........it's only like what, $35.......then you don't have to worry what right seat you'll be occupying. Git-r-done

[Pookie]

I hear ya, I would if I could but Im at 210hrs. I have a potential job offer, but would need to build 40hrs--cant afford it--that IATRA $35 fee jumps to a $5000 cost for me to get up to 250hrs. This was the underlying reason why I was asking these questions initially....

I did my Com Flt Test at 150hrs, my Multi at 160 and my IFR Type 1 at 200 bang on-needed 11hrs more PIC to get the Commercial signed off. When it comes to low-timers--I'm in the top 10. And to top it off, Im 30 years old. I got my Private when I was 18 and left avaition for quite some time before returning last year to complete what I started.

I know, boo hoo for me...I just can't compete with the 20 year old that can move up north at low pay for some time to build hours--and I haven't any patience to teach. With a mortgage and a 6 year old girl I couldn't bear to leave behind, this IATRA issue puts another hurdle up. I'm just hoping for a miracle, I guess.

[Pugster]

I hear ya, I would if I could but Im at 210hrs. I have a potential job offer, but would need to build 40hrs--cant afford it--that IATRA $35 fee jumps to a $5000 cost for me to get up to 250hrs.

Can you let us know what type the job offer is for - and what position? That knowledge would probably help a lot of us offer some advice on the situation.

It may end up being in your best interest to go further into debt and get the 40 hours...then again, it may not...without knowing the type it's really too tough to say.

[Spokes]

I know, boo hoo for me...I just can't compete with the 20 year old that can move up north at low pay for some time to build hours--and I haven't any patience to teach. With a mortgage and a 6 year old girl I couldn't bear to leave behind, this IATRA issue puts another hurdle up. I'm just hoping for a miracle, I guess.

I would say that if money is this tight you probably cannot afford to work as a pilot. I am not trying to be sarcastic here. Unfortunately entry level pilot pay is extremely low. Most can only (barely) feed themselves. With a mortgage and a family I would think it would be impossible.

[Pookie]

The job offer: It would be to fly a LearJet for a charter--I'm not really allowed to say more than that---a close friend's father is the Chief pilot.

Low pay: I don't mind the low pay, and accept that it would be low pay for quite some time. I would find other ways, as I always have, to supplement my income. That major issue is finding something in the Toronto area, rather than up north somewhere. It seems as if the entry-level pilot jobs are scarce in this area.

I spent $25000 last year to get to where I am and the extra $5000 isnt available right now. But you're right, it may be well worth it to spend the extra cash.

Cheers

[/quote]

[Clodhopper]

My mistake about the high performance. You're right, the IATRA is not required, but the licence just has to be endorsed for the specific a/c.

Thanks.

[Pugster]

The job offer: It would be to fly a LearJet for a charter

If this is the case, IMHO you should be trying to find out if it's a red herring - and if it isn't - you need to get those 40 hours and whatever is required to get you on the machine.

Do the math Pookie - the type rating on a Lear is worth way more than $5000 - the experience would be invaluable. If you've got a mortgage payment - you've got a house - you've got enough assets to secure a $5000 loan. The key here is whether or not this is actually gonna happen - a lot of these situations (especially when low-time "friends" are concerned) turn into bullshit stories that get discussed over a bottle of red wine but never materialize. I've had students tell me at 200 hours they have family friend so-and-so who owns machine "x" and have a guaranteed job. Guess what - I've never seen one of these situations come true.

So my advice is - if this is real - get your hours and don't miss out on what may be a career making opportunity. Look at it this way - if you are gunning for the majors, making a move like this could shave off at least 3 to 5 years; that would equate to much more than $5000 earning potential in the long run.

Am I the only one who thinks this is either a well orchestrated troll or a pretty simple decision to make?

Pookie - if you don't feel at liberty to discuss stuff - and want any advice (for what it's worth) PM me...I won't try and beat you to your job (I'm already where I want to be...finally )

[jjma]

The job offer: It would be to fly a LearJet for a charter

If this is the case, IMHO you should be trying to find out if it's a red herring - and if it isn't - you need to get those 40 hours and whatever is required to get you on the machine.

Do the math Pookie - the type rating on a Lear is worth way more than $5000 - the experience would be invaluable. If you've got a mortgage payment - you've got a house - you've got enough assets to secure a $5000 loan. The key here is whether or not this is actually gonna happen - a lot of these situations (especially when low-time "friends" are concerned) turn into bullshit stories that get discussed over a bottle of red wine but never materialize. I've had students tell me at 200 hours they have family friend so-and-so who owns machine "x" and have a guaranteed job. Guess what - I've never seen one of these situations come true.

So my advice is - if this is real - get your hours and don't miss out on what may be a career making opportunity. Look at it this way - if you are gunning for the majors, making a move like this could shave off at least 3 to 5 years; that would equate to much more than $5000 earning potential in the long run.

Am I the only one who thinks this is either a well orchestrated troll or a pretty simple decision to make?

Pookie - if you don't feel at liberty to discuss stuff - and want any advice (for what it's worth) PM me...I won't try and beat you to your job (I'm already where I want to be...finally )

Holly Molly, what an advice!! I wish you were my instructor...