Remembering Pilots

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:02 pm

Further to this information:

Workplace BC Report on Work Related Fatalities in BC 1988-1998:

Fatalities

This report explains clearly how dangerous Air taxi operations in British Columbia have been. Take note that the 10 year average for Commercial pilot fatalities in the period surveyed is currently being doubled.

Contrary to what Transport Canada’s senior managers would have you believe, the number of commercial pilot fatalities in British Columbia has increased over the last few years, co-incident with the withdrawal of regulatory oversight in this sector of commercial aviation. (16 in the past two years – almost two times the twenty-year average.)

I am trying to research the names of the pilots who died in 2005/2006. This is the list I have so far. Please add to it if you know of another pilot who died flying in '05, '06 - or this year, 2007.

Arnie Feast - BC - 28/2/2005
Nancy Chase-Allan - MB - 6/10/2005
Gordon Simmons - NFLD - 07/12/2005
Edward Huggett - BC - 21/01/2006
Robert Pyra - BC - 05/05/2006
Scott Manning - ON - 16/06/2006
Kwang Choi - ON - 31/07/2006
Gordon Macleod - NWT - 16/08/2006
Nicholas Gudzinski - AB - 19/08/2006
Georgianna Tracy Greig - AB - 26/09/2006

Thanks everyone.

nite_owl · Post by **nite_owl** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:35 pm

Simon Piper / Trevor Hardy Navair MU2 Terrace B.C. Dec21/05

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:42 pm

Thank you nite owl, that fills one in for me.

These are others in BC I am aware of, but have not got pilot names:

April 2005, 2 pilots, Vancouver Island, BC
July 2005, 2 pilots, Northern BC
November 2005, 2 pilots, NorthWestern BC
March 2006, 1 pilot, Vancouver Island, BC
September 2006, 1 pilot, Vanouver Island, BC

Also one in Ontario 10/Sep/2005

Speedbird Junior · Post by **Speedbird Junior** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:44 pm

Jason Ouellet. March 9th 2006 - CYPW - BC (think the date is correct)

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:57 pm

Off the top of my head, these are airshow pilots
who have died, either recently or nearby:

Nancy Lynn - 16 Oct 2006 (Virginia)
Guy Baldwin - 5 Oct 2006 (New Mexico)
Scott Manning - 15 June 2006 (Ottawa)
Christopher Good - 19 June 2006 (Illinois)
Jimmy Franklin - 11 July 2005 (Moose Jaw)
Bobby Younkin - 11 July 2005 (Moose Jaw)
Richard Bobbitt - 02 Oct 2004 (New Mexico)
Sean DeRosier - 15 Oct 2004 (California)
Ian Groom - 30 April 2004 (Ft Lauderdale)
Carey Moore - 9 July 2001 (Sarnia)

I am sure I have missed many.

The list of aerobatic pilots who died NOT
during airshows is simply too long to list
here ... Kathy Jaffe, Art Scholl, etc, etc.

v6g · Post by **v6g** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:59 pm

Mike Bracht & Mike Black - BC - 28th July 2005

elgrande · Post by **elgrande** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:21 pm

I knew 5 of these people. I also know the maintenance on these aircaft was substandard. I know their pay was below hourly minimum wage. But thats another thread right?

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:14 pm

Widow, I was trying to find the statistics that prove that aviation (I should say air taxi and commuter) is the most dangerous profession, worse than fallers and log truck drivers, but I can't find any stats. Have you seen some or am I out to lunch?

av8tor_assrope · Post by **av8tor_assrope** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:37 pm

you might have missed last years BFC midair over caledon (3). ohhhh and the one from baldwin (1) as well. i think they were around the same time period.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:12 pm

Is it just me, or is the list WAY to long? What's happening here people??
Fly safe.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:31 pm

xsbank wrote:Widow, I was trying to find the statistics that prove that aviation (I should say air taxi and commuter) is the most dangerous profession, worse than fallers and log truck drivers, but I can't find any stats. Have you seen some or am I out to lunch?

As a matter of fact xsbank, I have. From Worksafe BC's fatalities investigation, link above, for 1988-1998. If you check out the graphs on page 7, they show that although there were more deaths in the logging industry, the death rate per 10,0000 person-years is 9.3 for loggers. The only industry that excedes that is the air charter service, with a death rate of 21.5 .

According to page 25:

Logging is typically thought of as the most dangerous industry in B.C., but the charter air service industry actually had a higher death rate than any other B.C. industry from 1989 to 1998. For every 10,000 people working in a 1-year period, 21.5 people died. Part of the reason for this is that aircraft crashes tend to involve several workers — for example, a pilot, co-pilot, and flight attendant — whereas other accidents usually involve a single individual.

It is worth noting that the death rate for charter air service is based only
on workers directly employed in that industry and does not include
workers from other industries who are also killed in aircraft crashes.
For every air service worker killed in a crash, there may be several other
workers employed in other industries — loggers, mechanics, tree
planters — who also lose their lives.

Noting the large number of pilot deaths in BC in 2005 and 2006, whoever it was that said aviation in BC was getting better really has no idea what they are talking about.

C-GPFG · Post by **C-GPFG** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:12 pm

Hedley wrote:Off the top of my head, these are airshow pilots
who have died, either recently or nearby:

Nancy Lynn - 16 Oct 2006 (Virginia)
Guy Baldwin - 5 Oct 2006 (New Mexico)
Scott Manning - 15 June 2006 (Ottawa)
Christopher Good - 19 June 2006 (Illinois)
Jimmy Franklin - 11 July 2005 (Moose Jaw)
Bobby Younkin - 11 July 2005 (Moose Jaw)
Richard Bobbitt - 02 Oct 2004 (New Mexico)
Sean DeRosier - 15 Oct 2004 (California)
Ian Groom - 30 April 2004 (Ft Lauderdale)
Carey Moore - 9 July 2001 (Sarnia)

I am sure I have missed many.

The list of aerobatic pilots who died NOT
during airshows is simply too long to list
here ... Kathy Jaffe, Art Scholl, etc, etc.

. Lischer June/06

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:43 pm

The airshow pilots aside, the death rates in the charter airline sector have one main cause. Pilot error. Why is this allowed to continue? We are the only ones who can do anything about this. TC ain't helping. That's pretty obvious. The bad apples they do weed out, they allow back in to the industry. Pilots continue to allow themselves to be pushed. Pilots continue to ignore the few regs and safety precautions that can keep them alive. Staying alive should be somewhere near the top of everybody's priority list? Keeping the aircraft in one peace should be near the top as well. I rant about pilot's ignoring safety, and other pilots refer to me as a moron. Flying is NOT rocket science! It's really simple NOT to crash! Nothing pisses me off more than a stupid pilot killing him/herself, because they are stupid! Then all you arm chair quarterbacks jumping all over me because I think they were stupid, and you want me to show them respect?? It ain't going to happen. If you kill yourself in a preventable accident, you were stupid. Smarten up people! You are the reason this industry is a frikken death trap! YOU...the pilots! Not the companies....Okay, some to some extent......but YOU the PILOT are the cause of the lion's share of the accidents......when are you going to come to grips with that FACT??

Wasn't Me · Post by **Wasn't Me** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:48 pm

Doc

We as an industry have to stick together and just say NO! evertime we are asked to fly in shit or shitty airplanes. Take a stand tell the boss to fix it or get of the pot. Now how do we keep the next guy from saying yes and taking the job.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:10 pm

Unions!

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:04 pm

Doc wrote:The airshow pilots aside, the death rates in the charter airline sector have one main cause. Pilot error.

I'd really like to see you back that statement up with some proof. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of dead pilots that would disagree.

200hr Wonder · Post by **200hr Wonder** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:34 pm

I think most accidents have more than just one cause... pilot error may be one... but was the pilot fatigued? Not paying attention because he was stressed about his next mortgage payment because he is working for shit? Flying in weather over is head because he is unprepared due to the fact that the company he is flying for is so damn cheap they can't keep senior people around long enough to mentor new guys? Pressured into flying in crap weather by management? Mad a mistake after a maintenance shortcut forced him into a bad situation?

Come one we all know there is more than one factor in any accident.

tripleittt · Post by **tripleittt** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:42 pm

I don't care to participate too much on this forum, mostly because of some of the half whitts who post on here (real professionals), but this is one topic I must reply to. I agree with you Doc. I have had a few good friends bite it. ALL of them died because of pilot error. I have had many friends crash and kill others again ALL of their accidents were pilot error. I think as a whole people get too comfortable flying the same plane every day. I am sure that a handful of the accidents out there were not pilot error, but all in all, I have to agreee with Doc. We are all human and all humans make mistakes.

200 hr wonder. Everyone of those factors you mentioned fall into the same category. That category is called "PILOT ERROR"

200hr Wonder · Post by **200hr Wonder** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:43 pm

Oh and Hedley do us a favor and get off your high and mighty airshow pilots dying horse OK.

Guess what aerobatic flying is a lot more dangerous than any other flying out there so you are going to loose more friends if you decided to get into that flying. It is sad it sucks, but do not go high jacking a legit thread about the danger of flying Air Taxi and the unnecessarily high price in human lives it has taken recently. That is like comparing the death rate of Merchant Seamen to Race Boat drivers, apples and oranges. If you want to remember your friends get your own damn thread, but everyone time someone brings up pilots dying working for a living, please don't go and have the godamn chest beating contest about how so many of your friends are dead. It ain't something to be proud of, and quite frankly it just takes away from a serious and honest thread.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:55 pm

Forgot to mention Lloyd Sims, an Ontario pilot that died in as Pitts crash in 2006. Never met the guy, haven't seen the accident report. Dunno if he's worthy of mention here or not.

I'm not sure I'm allowed to mention these guys either, but they were really good guys that had hangars just down the row from mine:

Joe Broeders - what a great guy. Flew an Aztec non-stop across the north atlantic, to north africa. Died when his homebuilt shed a wing a few years back. Not sure if that was pilot error or not.

Bob Sterling - a careful and cautious pilot that died (with his wife) when his C210 shed a wing. Pilot error?

Oh yeah, another good friend in Florida, Ray Walkwitz died in a crash a few years back. A real prince of a guy.

Some more really nice pilots that have died recently: Jim MacEwen, Cal Moodie, and Bill Whaley - none in crashes. They might not be as important as you "taxi drivers", but they were great guys. Bill Whaley in particular spent 30 years of his life instructing, and I'm sure taught hundreds of pilots to fly, which I guess counts for diddly-squat in this crowd.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:01 pm

Lets not let this get into a slagging match arguing because we do not " READ " what Doc said.

" the death rates in the charter airline sector have one main cause. Pilot error. "

He is correct, however in some cases there are things beyond the pilots control that cause crashes such as an engine failing on a Beaver flying in conditions of glassy water and poor vis.

I'm sure Doc is not going to disagree with this, but he is correct to a greater or lesser degree pilot error is the MOST usual reason for crashes.

This can be improved by more LOFT and closer supervision by chief pilots who have the experience and balls to do it right.

Read my comments at the bottom of my posts.

Even those who dislike me and think I'm a moron like Doc can not discredit my safety record.

Cat

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:05 pm

tripleittt wrote:I don't care to participate too much on this forum, mostly because of some of the half whitts who post on here (real professionals), but this is one topic I must reply to. I agree with you Doc. I have had a few good friends bite it. ALL of them died because of pilot error. I have had many friends crash and kill others again ALL of their accidents were pilot error. I think as a whole people get too comfortable flying the same plane every day. I am sure that a handful of the accidents out there were not pilot error, but all in all, I have to agreee with Doc. We are all human and all humans make mistakes.

200 hr wonder. Everyone of those factors you mentioned fall into the same category. That category is called "PILOT ERROR"

Ever heard of SATOPs? Interestingly enough, even Transport Canada disagrees with you.

When an accident occurs, often the pilot is the only one held accountable. While the pilot may be at fault for having made a poor decision or series of decisions that led to the accident, other questions have to be asked…Were there any systemic problems in the company? What was management’s role in the accident? What did management do to prevent the accident? What is management doing to prevent a recurrence? Management must be accountable for the safety of the day-to-day operations. When management is held responsible for an accident, they will become more proactive in promoting safe operating practices.

Certainly I'm not saying pilots never make mistakes. Heck, I'll never forget the day I was flying in a beaver from Nanaimo to Sechelt and the pilot forgot to check his fuel tanks. When we took off and ran into a bunch of seagulls, and the engine cut out, my husband looked at the chop below us and reached for the door. Thank goodness it wasn't a gull in the engine, and just a silly pilot who'd forgotten to switch tanks before take-off.

But there are often other factors that have to be considered, and to discredit them, is often to discredit a professional pilot.

200hr Wonder · Post by **200hr Wonder** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:17 pm

Hey Hedley pull your head outta your ass for a second ok, this thread is specifically about the air taxi guys, and yes everyone who dies counts, but guess what, this thread aint about them, you want to talk about them make your own, feel free, that is what this after all is a discussion forum, but we are not talking about them here, I mean call me crazy but I think this thread is about a specific narrow group of people... is that wrong? To have a specific discussion? Or should we just mention every pilot who has ever died every time we bring up the topic?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:10 pm

You know Widow, other than a catastrophic structural failure, like a wing parting company with the aircraft, I can't think of a single accident that could not have been prevented by, cleaning the wings, not descending into the ground, not pushing weather, not flying overloaded, filling the fuel tanks, departing on the proper tank, etc., all of which are indeed pilot error. The fact the pilot backed over his wife in the driveway, missed a payment on his Lada...yes these are factors...leading to...guess what? PILOT ERROR!
And 200hr wonder, cut poor Hedley some slack....but we are talking charter ops here.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:29 am

Doc wrote:You know Widow, other than a catastrophic structural failure, like a wing parting company with the aircraft, I can't think of a single accident that could not have been prevented by, cleaning the wings, not descending into the ground, not pushing weather, not flying overloaded, filling the fuel tanks, departing on the proper tank, etc., all of which are indeed pilot error. The fact the pilot backed over his wife in the driveway, missed a payment on his Lada...yes these are factors...leading to...guess what? PILOT ERROR!

Again, I agree that pilot error is often the last link in the chain of events leading to an accident. Perhaps the pilot isn't experienced, or educated enough to make the right decision - who gave him the power to fly passengers? Perhaps the pilot is too concerned about meeting his mortgage payment to worry about the aircraft being overweight. Perhaps many pilots think they are gods and immune from harm.

But accident specialists will tell you that there is usually a chain of events, where if any of the links were altered, the accident could have been prevented. For instance, what if part of commercial pilot training included a recurrent course on occupational health and safety, and pilot rights? Maybe that pilot would have refused to fly overweight. What if wages for pilots were regulated, then he wouldn't have been so underpaid he was stressing about his mortgage. What if pilots understood that flying is dangerous unless everything in the chain is dealt with with the utmost care?

You know, I do all this shouting out for pilot's rights, and my husband was just a passenger. That pilot got that plane down onto the glassy water with oil and smoke all over the place and my husband was uninjured. What happened that day was not that pilot's fault. And I am absolutely appalled that anyone would accept the TSB's conclusion that that plane went down due to weather and pilot error. Without the engine, no one will ever know what happened that day. And as long as people continue accepting mediocre investigations when deaths are involved, then the deaths will continue. You live with it.