getting out of bonds
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
getting out of bonds
...
Last edited by avi8tr on Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Rank Moderator
- Posts: 5621
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:47 pm
- Location: Straight outta Dundarave...
Pay up you cheap bastard! Or, alternatively, work the amount of time that you agreed to in lieu of the bond.
Thirdly, and perhaps more likely, good troll!
Thirdly, and perhaps more likely, good troll!
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
-
- Rank 4
- Posts: 286
- Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:40 pm
Troll or not, I can't believe that some people actually voted for you to walk away and not pay. An agreement was made, what is the justification for not honoring ones commitment?
So a pilot and his/her employer agree on a term of employment. Some pilots think that if something better comes along, the agreement can be disregarded and the pilot can walk away scott free. These same people obviously wouldn't have a problem with a company not honoring their end of the deal either I guess...
So a pilot and his/her employer agree on a term of employment. Some pilots think that if something better comes along, the agreement can be disregarded and the pilot can walk away scott free. These same people obviously wouldn't have a problem with a company not honoring their end of the deal either I guess...

Back out on that road again
Turn this beast into the wind
There are those that break and bend
I'm the other kind
Turn this beast into the wind
There are those that break and bend
I'm the other kind
-
- Rank 4
- Posts: 231
- Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:05 pm
See, this poll should be rephrased: Should one be honest or not?
It shouldn't even be a question.
By signing, whatever the terms were, you agreed to them. Now, unless your employer didn't live up to the terms, why in the world wouldn't you live up to your end of the contract?
The only way I see I wouldn't pay is if I had to sign under duress. Now, I know this was discussed in another thread but did you have to sign that bond after you got hired or was it a condition of your initial employment? If you were forced to sign it AFTER you got hired, then that would constitute duress because you were forced to sign to keep your job. Otherwise, it's a condition of employment and you have 2 choices: say no and walk away (by all means!!!) or sign the paper. If you sign the paper, you are responsible for what you signed for. Period.
I just can't believe how sometimes people will do anything to avoid their responsibilities. By voting against paying, you people are just perpetuating the employer/employee relationship problems this industry has.
It shouldn't even be a question.
By signing, whatever the terms were, you agreed to them. Now, unless your employer didn't live up to the terms, why in the world wouldn't you live up to your end of the contract?
The only way I see I wouldn't pay is if I had to sign under duress. Now, I know this was discussed in another thread but did you have to sign that bond after you got hired or was it a condition of your initial employment? If you were forced to sign it AFTER you got hired, then that would constitute duress because you were forced to sign to keep your job. Otherwise, it's a condition of employment and you have 2 choices: say no and walk away (by all means!!!) or sign the paper. If you sign the paper, you are responsible for what you signed for. Period.
I just can't believe how sometimes people will do anything to avoid their responsibilities. By voting against paying, you people are just perpetuating the employer/employee relationship problems this industry has.
No Brakes
"Flying is simple. You just throw yourself at the ground and miss." Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
"Flying is simple. You just throw yourself at the ground and miss." Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
Did I read that correctly . 30% of the respondents would give their word, sign a bond, and than walk on it and try not to pay. And we wonder why some employers think pilots are scum.
The level of integrity in our industry sinks lower every day.
To bad the 70% have to even sign bonds because of the rest of you.
The level of integrity in our industry sinks lower every day.
To bad the 70% have to even sign bonds because of the rest of you.
-
- Rank 11
- Posts: 3239
- Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:58 am
As stated above your going to @#$! it up for the next guy, instead of signing a peice of paper there going to make pilots fork out the cash.
If I was the CP I'd make the bond known as the avi8tr So every pilot that followed would know your name and curse it for screwing the rest of them.
If I was the CP I'd make the bond known as the avi8tr So every pilot that followed would know your name and curse it for screwing the rest of them.
Here we go again, Jezus fackin christ
So at the time you said you would love to be there with them, as you signed now you want to leave without paying. WOW
Tell you what do the honourable thing, talk to your employer.
I was recently called by Jazz, I actually put jazz off until I talked to management as i wouldn't go back on my word or my bond.
If they say no nothing we can't do anything than leave and pay. If you don't want to pay than I don't want to hear shit from you about how people going back on there words are ass's cause well that'd be you.
So at the time you said you would love to be there with them, as you signed now you want to leave without paying. WOW
Tell you what do the honourable thing, talk to your employer.
I was recently called by Jazz, I actually put jazz off until I talked to management as i wouldn't go back on my word or my bond.
If they say no nothing we can't do anything than leave and pay. If you don't want to pay than I don't want to hear shit from you about how people going back on there words are ass's cause well that'd be you.
- LostinRotation
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1048
- Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:54 pm
- Location: Cloud #8
Grow up and face your responsibilities. If you can't be held to your own word, you have no place in the sky or cockpit where other peoples lives rely on your accountability. If there is a thing called karma, you should find yourself looking through the job ads soon while a collection company rings you.
Pay the bond and move on with some honour.
-=0=LiR=0=-
Pay the bond and move on with some honour.
-=0=LiR=0=-
Sometimes I think it's a shame when I get feelin' better when I'm feelin no pain.


-
- Rank 1
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:43 pm
It's your word bud..
Be the bigger man there bud. Forget that you signed a contract. You gave your word. Don't worry about the industry, there are and will continue to be plenty of good jobs out there....If you work for a decent operator, and they treat you with respect and good will, try to return the favour. Breaking promises just leads to bad blood. We have an oportunity to change this industry for the better right now. 

-
- Rank 4
- Posts: 259
- Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:38 am
I think this poll should be re-worded, should employers prevent you from improving your life/career with bonds. I'm no legal expert but I think when an employer prevents you from leaving (ie-cant pay off $$), that is a no no. If the company was good there would be no need for a bond, and its usually the same ones who want a PPC when u come in the door, f them, if you can get out of it all the power to you, why should ones career continue to get screwed over by shit hole companies and their bonds
I would pay. I paid before a 1000$ bond for a C-310,wich job I left after a month. But what I did, I gave the owner of the company a series of 20 post-dated checks of 50$. Each of wich he cashed for the following 20 months! I guess I pushed my luck with this one! But I think most companies won`t hate your guts if you at least pay. You can make all kinds of agreements with them. The important thing with this one is to never burn your bridges. MajorKong
- Golden Flyer
- Rank 7
- Posts: 550
- Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:46 pm
If you pay, you're nuts! You people who fly for a living will continue to be nothing but whores. You're signing a contract for your training? You should be PAYED for all training.
Get PAYED not PLAYED.
Get PAYED not PLAYED.
"Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible"
Edward Vernon Rickenbacker
All Pilots & Prospective Pilots Should Have Read:
http://walter.freefuelforever.com
Walter Gilles
Emirates: B-777
Edward Vernon Rickenbacker
All Pilots & Prospective Pilots Should Have Read:
http://walter.freefuelforever.com
Walter Gilles
Emirates: B-777
In my opinion, Training bonds are a form of extortion to keep you in a job. If they want you to stay they should at least make the conditions workable and not expect you to "rest" for 3 hours at 4 in the morning in a flee ridden, bug infested, slum above a maintenance garage.
It is called PROMISSORY note for a reason. You PROMISED to pay. Period.
It is true that most of the bonds are not worth the paper they are printed on in court. However, this should not matter. As long as the company lived up to it's word and trained, upgraded and paid you etc. Then you owe it to them to live up to your part as a man (woman as the case may be).
If you worked for the company that I am at, and you did this to them it would mean some changes to our policy. People coming up behind you would have to now pay up front instead of just signing. Now you've farcked the company and everyone behind you. Personally, I would keep track of your location in the industry, call a lot of the contacts I have, and make it my mission to screw you wherever you might wind up or think about winding up. You obviously would have no problem screwing your company and co-workers; and hey; what goes around comes around!
I didn't agree with our companies bond policy on one of our aircraft, and I was thinking about leaving; so guess what; I didn't sign the bond and opted not to go on the other aircraft. As far as I am concerned, your word is all you have that counts for anything come interview/hiring/upgrade time.
It is true that most of the bonds are not worth the paper they are printed on in court. However, this should not matter. As long as the company lived up to it's word and trained, upgraded and paid you etc. Then you owe it to them to live up to your part as a man (woman as the case may be).
If you worked for the company that I am at, and you did this to them it would mean some changes to our policy. People coming up behind you would have to now pay up front instead of just signing. Now you've farcked the company and everyone behind you. Personally, I would keep track of your location in the industry, call a lot of the contacts I have, and make it my mission to screw you wherever you might wind up or think about winding up. You obviously would have no problem screwing your company and co-workers; and hey; what goes around comes around!
I didn't agree with our companies bond policy on one of our aircraft, and I was thinking about leaving; so guess what; I didn't sign the bond and opted not to go on the other aircraft. As far as I am concerned, your word is all you have that counts for anything come interview/hiring/upgrade time.
- Golden Flyer
- Rank 7
- Posts: 550
- Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:46 pm
Well what if you signed a bond and the company's work ethics continued to deteriorate over a period of time? What do you do then if one is questioning his/her safety within the company?
Look, no one shouldn't be signing any training bond nor pay for any training! They want people to work for them on the specific machines they're getting to benefit their needs... They pay for their new hires training to work the machines.
Look, no one shouldn't be signing any training bond nor pay for any training! They want people to work for them on the specific machines they're getting to benefit their needs... They pay for their new hires training to work the machines.
"Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible"
Edward Vernon Rickenbacker
All Pilots & Prospective Pilots Should Have Read:
http://walter.freefuelforever.com
Walter Gilles
Emirates: B-777
Edward Vernon Rickenbacker
All Pilots & Prospective Pilots Should Have Read:
http://walter.freefuelforever.com
Walter Gilles
Emirates: B-777
ALPA has some thoughts on bonds in the Canadian system. They create unequal terms of employment among employee groups. Canada is an equal opportunity employer. Questions?
Training Bonds:
1. The 2004 bankruptcy of JetsGo left large numbers of its pilots personally responsible for the payment of “training bonds” effectively imposed on them as a condition of employment and advancement.
2. “Training bonds” are performance bonds which commit pilots to forfeit a sum money— usually substantial--alleged to represent the cost of their training, where the pilot ceases to be employed for a minimum period of time.
3. Training bonds are common in Canada among smaller carriers and carriers whose employees lack union representation. They are a clear example of unequal terms of employment imposed on the most vulnerable members of the profession: typically young pilots, new hires, and those without representation.
4. The amounts at issue can be stunningly huge, the equivalent of a small mortgage. Media reports indicate that in the case of JetsGo, substantial numbers of pilots found themselves liable for sums of $30,000 or more. This at a time when they were thrown out of work.
5. The frank purpose of training bonds is coercion against employment mobility. Pilots subject to training bonds escape forfeiture only where they remain employed for a minimum period of time, often years. In effect, they create a form of indentured service.
6. Training bonds are typically required by employers at a time when the pilot is most vulnerable: young, inexperienced, and new in the profession. They are entered into in conditions in which bargaining power is most unequal: at the pre-employment phase as a condition of hire, and in companies whose employees lack effective representation.
7. The training bond arrangement typically requires a prospective new-hire to put up a sum of money subject to full or partial repayment where employment does not last a minimum period of time. Usually, this is in the form of a bank loan arranged by the employer prior to
and as a condition of employment. Typically, the employer will make payments on the bond for its duration. However, where the pilot’s employment ends prior to the time-frame of the bond, he or she is individually liable to the bank for the balance.
8. The terms of training bonds are unilaterally set as a condition of hire. Because they are not negotiated, the terms are usually one-sided and often go beyond the legitimate needs and interests of employers. For example, the sums and duration of the bond may not reflect the
employer’s actual training expenditure. And they may offload all of the risk of employment interruption onto the pilot, so that he or she remains liable even where wrongfully dismissed, laid off, or terminated as the consequence of a bankruptcy.
9. The existence of training bonds further tilts the employment relationship in the employer’s favour for their duration. Pilots under threat of forfeiture are less likely to take risks associated with incurring employer displeasure. They may be less likely to hold employers accountable for safety, putting the travelling public at risk. They may feel constrained in their free choice to seek union representation. In both these ways, training bonds generate effects contrary to the public interest.
10. It is generally understood that employees unhappy with their terms and conditions of employment have two options: “exit” (seeking alternate employment with more favourable terms) or “voice” (seeking mechanisms to articulate their interests, such as union representation). Effectively, pilots subject to training bonds have neither the real option of
“exit” or “voice”.
11. Effectively, training bonds undermine the interests articulated in the Canada Labour Code, Part III. They typically contain terms which no employee would willingly enter into. Further, they perpetuate this dynamic for the duration of the bond.
12. Training bonds undermine the interests articulated in the Canada Labour Code, Part II: the fundamental freedom to seek representation by a trade union.
13. Finally, training bonds represent a check on the exercise of professional rights and obligations associated with safety under the Canadian Aviation Regulations.
14. ALPA argues that employers could realize the same goal of employment longevity through alternate strategies more in tune with the public interest: terms and conditions of employment (including seniority protections) which reward and encourage long service.
15. ALPA is opposed to training bonds for the reasons set out above. Our primary recommendation is that training bonds should be legislatively prohibited.
16. In the alternative, where employees or unions are compelled to negotiate training bonds with employers, the following protections should be applicable.
Any training bond:
a) should apply only to initial type conversion of new entry pilots not already licensed on type;
b) should not exceed the actual direct cost incurred by the employer, proof of which should be provided by the employer;
c) should be amortized over a period of not more than three years with the bond reducing to zero at the end of the agreed period, which period should commence at the beginning of training;
d) should not be payable by a pilot who is furloughed, retrenched (retrenchment to include transfer to another company at the behest of the employer as part of any retrenchment or restructuring process and/or any operational reasons including liquidation), dismissed
from the company or retired from the company, whether it be normal retirement or retirement on medical grounds;
e) where it becomes payable, should be paid over a negotiated period with interest, where applicable, not exceeding prime lending rate, and should, if possible, be paid in a tax efficient manner;
f) should be cancelled and regarded as null and void in the event of the company breaching the terms and conditions of employment.
Training Bonds:
1. The 2004 bankruptcy of JetsGo left large numbers of its pilots personally responsible for the payment of “training bonds” effectively imposed on them as a condition of employment and advancement.
2. “Training bonds” are performance bonds which commit pilots to forfeit a sum money— usually substantial--alleged to represent the cost of their training, where the pilot ceases to be employed for a minimum period of time.
3. Training bonds are common in Canada among smaller carriers and carriers whose employees lack union representation. They are a clear example of unequal terms of employment imposed on the most vulnerable members of the profession: typically young pilots, new hires, and those without representation.
4. The amounts at issue can be stunningly huge, the equivalent of a small mortgage. Media reports indicate that in the case of JetsGo, substantial numbers of pilots found themselves liable for sums of $30,000 or more. This at a time when they were thrown out of work.
5. The frank purpose of training bonds is coercion against employment mobility. Pilots subject to training bonds escape forfeiture only where they remain employed for a minimum period of time, often years. In effect, they create a form of indentured service.
6. Training bonds are typically required by employers at a time when the pilot is most vulnerable: young, inexperienced, and new in the profession. They are entered into in conditions in which bargaining power is most unequal: at the pre-employment phase as a condition of hire, and in companies whose employees lack effective representation.
7. The training bond arrangement typically requires a prospective new-hire to put up a sum of money subject to full or partial repayment where employment does not last a minimum period of time. Usually, this is in the form of a bank loan arranged by the employer prior to
and as a condition of employment. Typically, the employer will make payments on the bond for its duration. However, where the pilot’s employment ends prior to the time-frame of the bond, he or she is individually liable to the bank for the balance.
8. The terms of training bonds are unilaterally set as a condition of hire. Because they are not negotiated, the terms are usually one-sided and often go beyond the legitimate needs and interests of employers. For example, the sums and duration of the bond may not reflect the
employer’s actual training expenditure. And they may offload all of the risk of employment interruption onto the pilot, so that he or she remains liable even where wrongfully dismissed, laid off, or terminated as the consequence of a bankruptcy.
9. The existence of training bonds further tilts the employment relationship in the employer’s favour for their duration. Pilots under threat of forfeiture are less likely to take risks associated with incurring employer displeasure. They may be less likely to hold employers accountable for safety, putting the travelling public at risk. They may feel constrained in their free choice to seek union representation. In both these ways, training bonds generate effects contrary to the public interest.
10. It is generally understood that employees unhappy with their terms and conditions of employment have two options: “exit” (seeking alternate employment with more favourable terms) or “voice” (seeking mechanisms to articulate their interests, such as union representation). Effectively, pilots subject to training bonds have neither the real option of
“exit” or “voice”.
11. Effectively, training bonds undermine the interests articulated in the Canada Labour Code, Part III. They typically contain terms which no employee would willingly enter into. Further, they perpetuate this dynamic for the duration of the bond.
12. Training bonds undermine the interests articulated in the Canada Labour Code, Part II: the fundamental freedom to seek representation by a trade union.
13. Finally, training bonds represent a check on the exercise of professional rights and obligations associated with safety under the Canadian Aviation Regulations.
14. ALPA argues that employers could realize the same goal of employment longevity through alternate strategies more in tune with the public interest: terms and conditions of employment (including seniority protections) which reward and encourage long service.
15. ALPA is opposed to training bonds for the reasons set out above. Our primary recommendation is that training bonds should be legislatively prohibited.
16. In the alternative, where employees or unions are compelled to negotiate training bonds with employers, the following protections should be applicable.
Any training bond:
a) should apply only to initial type conversion of new entry pilots not already licensed on type;
b) should not exceed the actual direct cost incurred by the employer, proof of which should be provided by the employer;
c) should be amortized over a period of not more than three years with the bond reducing to zero at the end of the agreed period, which period should commence at the beginning of training;
d) should not be payable by a pilot who is furloughed, retrenched (retrenchment to include transfer to another company at the behest of the employer as part of any retrenchment or restructuring process and/or any operational reasons including liquidation), dismissed
from the company or retired from the company, whether it be normal retirement or retirement on medical grounds;
e) where it becomes payable, should be paid over a negotiated period with interest, where applicable, not exceeding prime lending rate, and should, if possible, be paid in a tax efficient manner;
f) should be cancelled and regarded as null and void in the event of the company breaching the terms and conditions of employment.