Canada Flight Supplement (CFS) - 1300+ pages!

skye · Post by **skye** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:54 am

Can anyone offer any insight as to why NAV CANADA continues to consolidate all of Canada's aerodrome information into one CFS. At 1300+ pages every 56 days, think of the annual consumption of paper, and the printing costs, which are invariably passed on in the form of a $20/issue price tag. There is a more efficient way - look at the US, for example, where a similar document is broken up into regions, and sold individually. It provides many benefits: cheaper, less paper consumed, lighter to carry, less room in the flight bag, fewer pages to leaf through. I am a GA pilot who tends to fly locally (within Ontario mostly) so perhaps my views are biased. Another option for Nav Canada is to encourage (by a better price break incentive) purchase by subscriptions - so they publish only what's required (with fewer wasted copies) which should also reduce printing costs for additional savings (optimistic?). Just wanted to sound out the others in this Forum. If there is a strong consensus, we should approach Nav Canada about this...with a strong, collective voice, they might listen.

Jungle Jim · Post by **Jungle Jim** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:15 am

I agree that the US system is more user friendly. Our book is too big and none of us need info on every airport in the country.

A few years ago the RAA took the initiative to approach Nav Canada to produce the info on disc form since the CFS data is already in digital format. It turns out that they do produce the CFS on a disc called "DFLIP" and it is avalable to the military only. (I suspect that they know with today's technology discs can be copied and their revenues would disappear.)I have a 2003 copy that allows me to print off only the pages I need in any size format and also in colour. I just check the printed CFS for changes and note them on the printed version. If any of you know someone in the military maybe you can get a more recent one.

Jim

niss · Post by **niss** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:28 am

I happen to like the fact that I have all these airports in one book, even though I do not fly across the country. I am sure for the corperate jets this is a godsend because they dont have to have a whole volume of books.

Perhapse a half and half approach would be better, the full CFS for those who need/want it, and volumes for the regional people.

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:33 am

I too prefer the one volume/one country FSS - it isn't THAT big! If you add up all the little volumes in the US it actually adds up to more paper/volume/weight as a lot of the useful information is duplicated.

What I've always wondered is why we couldn't have an amendable book like the former AIP used to be. That way, only changed information would need to be produced/distributed every 56 days.

Just my two cents...

Snoopy

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:40 pm

why reinvent the wheel. my CFS still has a green cover.

Chickaddd · Post by **Chickaddd** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:49 pm

ahh..... the green cover, I finally caved and threw it out, no one on ebay wanted the relic.

I may be one of the few who actually will read through the book just for the heck of it.

Woxof38 · Post by **Woxof38** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:46 pm

All manuals, supplements CFS & WAS, CAPS, maps are actually online right now, in adobe format, only to Nav Canada employees through the Nav Canada intranet. We received a memo a while ago, saying that the plan eventually is to let the general public have access to them, but at a price of course. Don't know when that will be.

KnownIce · Post by **KnownIce** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:56 pm

Instead of splitting the CFS into regions, I'd rather see all the private/hospital heliports removed into a separate supplement. These facilities represent a fairly large portion of the supplement but are entirely irrelevant to almost all pilots.

skye · Post by **skye** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:19 pm

Awesome! ... Keep the great suggestions coming. As the end-users (and consumers) we have a say in how this publication is structured; I believe there is a better way. Once this post has reached a critical mass, I intend to compile the constructive ideas into a sensible format and forward them to the appropriate contacts at Nav Canada. When I (hopefully) receive a response, I will re-post same for everyone's info.

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:31 pm

I think a far better question to ask of NavCanada, and TC, would be why we need to update our CAPs and CFSs every 56 days, when it takes 6 months or longer for changes to these two documents to be published.

Just for fun, find a NOTAM amending an altitude on an approach and watch for when it gets put into the books.

I saw one go through 5 issues of the CAP before the plate was amended. Good thing we live in the age of instant communication.

linecrew · Post by **linecrew** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:52 pm

sakism wrote:I saw one go through 5 issues of the CAP before the plate was amended. Good thing we live in the age of instant communication.

There's quite a long and involved process that often includes TC and sometimes even 3rd party procedure designers (outside Nav Canada) to get this shit done...it takes time and doesn't rely on just one or two people.

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:10 am

While I don't necessarily buy the fact that 6 months is required to change a sector altitude by 100' - that is not my main concern.

My main concern is that if the brand new CAP that I open isn't any more current than about 6 months prior, why do I have to have a new one every 56 days?

Mighty 150 Flyer · Post by **Mighty 150 Flyer** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:46 am

I agree that the CFS is way too thick and clumbersome. I find it difficult to fly and flip through pages and pages of irrelevant data and keep the thing upright at the same time in turbulence. Although it is better than the long version that they used to produce. I'm surprised that they haven't broken it down to smaller sections and kept the same price. The CAP East/West was that same price as each new CAP.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:24 am

if they can publish a seperate water aerodrome book, then why not a seperate heliport too? and an arctic pub, and western canada, and central and eastern canada? makes sense to me.

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:30 am

Edo wrote:why reinvent the wheel. my CFS still has a green cover.

When did they go to a green cover??

small penguin · Post by **small penguin** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:37 pm

Ask around and see how many guys had umpteen packets of unfiled AIP amendments lying around among pizza boxes and beer cans, and I think you'll get your answer. Reprinting may be wasteful and/or costly, but it ensures you have the most up-to-date pages, similar to how the CAPs are published.

I really dont get how so many people could complain about the AIPs way of doing thing. Heck even most of the people I graduated with during my PPL complained about the amendments when the first batch of them arrived. Is it really THAT hard? You're a freaking pilot! Seriously, are you afraid of getting your hands dirty? No, mostly just frapping lazy... Shame.

small penguin · Post by **small penguin** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:39 pm

On that note though, I love having every single airport inside the CFS. Because that way, I truely can say that tomorrow, I'll fly to Newfoundland and visit the beautiful Fogo airstrip.

Wouldnt be able to do that if all I had were airport listings in Ontario..

pilot to dispatch · Post by **pilot to dispatch** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:50 pm

If you'd rather ammend stuff, use jepp charts. Or better yet, buy yourself a fancy tablet if you're out to save the forests!

Wacko · Post by **Wacko** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:13 pm

I think the best idea would be to have the regions split with a bible version for those flying long distances. The problem with taking out heliports is that helicopter pilots would need to buy both; after all… they can land on a runway. Likewise in case of an emergency, I’d rather have all the information available to me on that private runway I’m about to land on.

The other thing that I think would be useful is a trade in incentive. 5 old for 1 new or something like that. That way there’s an incentive to recycle, and companies could save a few bucks while at it.

The problem with an AIP style is that if you spill your coffee, you’ll have to buy a new one, which would no doubt be more expensive… though I know in the long run it would probably be cheaper. But I can also see some of us starving pilots flying with a coffee drenched CFS even if you wouldn’t be able to read what’s on the pages.

2R · Post by 2R » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:46 am

It is one of the few heavy objects that i can legally get past security .Other than a sock filled with coins it is one of the few legal weapons you can take on board an airplane .Even a rolled up newspaper is not as effective for smashing skulls as this heavy little book

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:43 am

The problem with taking out heliports is that helicopter pilots would need to buy both; after all… they can land on a runway.

Ya but they can afford it!

we still have people volunteering to fly fixed wing.

Question though, does the Weekend PPL need to have an upto date CFS in his plane flying around VFR? I'm a little sketchy on the regs as per . SOP. I swear . Senior has a White Covered one laying around.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:21 am

does the Weekend PPL need to have an upto date CFS in his plane flying around VFR

Day VFR, no pubs required at all (I rarely carry any) so sure, expired CFS is legal.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#602_60

However, Night VFR (and VFR-OTT) requires current pubs (a frequently violated reg, I suspect).

Just imagine what . Norris could do, with a CFS in each hand!

Benwa · Post by **Benwa** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:32 am

Hedley wrote:Just imagine what . Norris could do, with a CFS in each hand!

Oh No... you did not just turn this thread into a . Norris thread did ya ????

. Norris would just Roundhouse kick the CFS into separate regions.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:37 am

This thread needs pics! Photoshop, anyone?

Where's Snowgoose when you need him ... probably hanging around at Kmart again, doing his Jason Mewes impersonation.

niko · Post by **niko** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:49 pm

If Nav Can can split the CAPs by regions, why can't they split the CFS by region as well?

Let's split it by region like the CAPs.