Hope NDB Error

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog

randallg
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:42 pm
Location: CZBB
Contact:

Hope NDB Error

Post by randallg »

Last summer I was testing my avionics on a VFR flight from Vancouver to the interior. I was tracking B9 which goes from Hope NDB to Kamloops NDB, at 9500 feet. From Hope the track is 009deg, but while tracking it I observed that I was being led well to the west of the airway - just about up the Fraser Canyon. After doing that for a while I switched to Kamloops NDB, which was way more accurate, and I regained the airway. My ADF has been accurate everywhere else, so I suspect mountain effect in that area. Has anyone else observed this?
---------- ADS -----------
 
randall g =%^)> C-GTUM - 1974 Cardinal RG - CZBB
BC Flying Photos
ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 6317
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by ahramin »

Did you do anything to test that your ADF was actually trying to track the beacon? Ident signal, ADF test function?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
pilotbzh
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 612
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:33 am
Location: yyz

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by pilotbzh »

what's an ADF? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
 
SkyWolfe
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:18 pm
Location: CYVR

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by SkyWolfe »

Wasn't there a NOTAM out in the summer saying the Hope NDB was u/s? Maybe it still is :?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
V1 Rotate
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Fragrant Harbour

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by V1 Rotate »

Yeah... it's and ADF...
---------- ADS -----------
 
"I have control!"
the_professor
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1130
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:03 pm

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by the_professor »

Hard to say in that specific instance.

But generally speaking an aircraft that is truly navigating using NDBs or VORs looks like a drunken sailor zig-zagging down the sidewalk after leaving the pub, as compared to someone flying a GPS track.

I've had /S aircraft gradually deviate 5 or 6 miles off-course, and when queried, they almost inevitably come back with "Well we're showing ourselves right on the centreline/"xxx" radial." GPS sure is phenomenal.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Hedley
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10430
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 6:40 am
Location: CYSH
Contact:

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by Hedley »

Perspective: If VOR and ADF did not exist today, and
you attempted to have them certified for IFR ops,
you would get laughed out of Tower C.

As they say, if capital punishment was good enough
for my grandfather and father, it's good enough
for me! :wink:
---------- ADS -----------
 
wxnut
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:04 am

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by wxnut »

pilotbzh wrote:what's an ADF? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Automatic Direction Finder
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Automatic Direction Finder
Do many pilots still use them for navigating?
---------- ADS -----------
 
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
SkyWolfe
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1483
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:18 pm
Location: CYVR

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by SkyWolfe »

I usually just use them as a cross reference to ensure Im where I think I am :P
---------- ADS -----------
 
visual approach
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by visual approach »

SkyWolfe wrote:I usually just use them as a cross reference to ensure Im where I think I am :P

I usually just use them to listen to the hockey game! :D
---------- ADS -----------
 
son: Dad, when I grow up I want to be a pilot!

Dad: Son, i'm sorry, but you can't do both!
User avatar
app flap
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:28 pm
Location: M to the B-dizzle!

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by app flap »

wait... are we talking about the AM radio receiver? i even have one that has a timer for, you know... timing things.
---------- ADS -----------
 
QUACK!
Rowdy
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5166
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:26 pm
Location: On Borrowed Wings

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by Rowdy »

I shoot probably 4 or 5 NDB approaches a day.. using the GPS overlay of course..

Always amazed how far off center some of the beacons will put ya. But I still keep it on in case the gps decides to shit the bed
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

When it comes to accuracy on an approach I'll take the Radio Range over an ADF approach any day.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
wxnut
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:04 am

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by wxnut »

. . wrote:
Automatic Direction Finder
Do many pilots still use them for navigating?
aren't they normally used as aids such as GP Checks and step downs on IAP's ?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Chuck Ellsworth
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3074
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:49 am
Location: Always moving

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

I still prefer the cone of silence because it takes more skill to find it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
User avatar
roscoe
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 8:31 am
Location: Winnipeg Heart of the Continent

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by roscoe »

It never ceases to amaze me how a simple observation and request for info attracts so many would-be TV gag writers.
On the other hand, it does give rise to a chuckle or two.
---------- ADS -----------
 
If you don't know,ASK!
"Do or do not..there is no try"
randallg
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:42 pm
Location: CZBB
Contact:

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by randallg »

I tried this again last week, navigating B9 from HE to GABIN, at 9500', via the GPS and autopilot. MEA is 9000. This kept me bang on the track. While doing this I was watching my ADF tail swing back and forth from on track to about 30 degrees right. It was doing this quite quickly, sometime taking only a few seconds to move 30 degrees. This ADF works everywhere else so I am convinced there is serious mountain error in this area. And keep the wisecracks coming :D
---------- ADS -----------
 
randall g =%^)> C-GTUM - 1974 Cardinal RG - CZBB
BC Flying Photos
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by Cat Driver »

This ADF works everywhere else so I am convinced there is serious mountain error in this area. And keep the wisecracks coming :D
My son is in the excavator business and I used to be an arms smuggler..we could get my son to dig some deep holes in those mountains and I'll get some nuclear weapons and we will bury them in those mountains and blow them to hell out of there...then you can fly that airway with your ADF and toss the GPS in the garbage.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
CID
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3544
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:43 am
Location: Canada

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by CID »

Perspective: If VOR and ADF did not exist today, and
you attempted to have them certified for IFR ops,
you would get laughed out of Tower C.
Why would you say that? Were you aware that the vast majority of GPS installations in aircraft today are "supplementary means"?
---------- ADS -----------
 
imarai
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 236
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:59 am
Location: Lethbridge

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by imarai »

The Hope NDB has a history of suspect reliability dating back over fifty years. The Hope NDB was cited as a possible factor in the TCA Northstar crash on Mount Slesse in 1956. The airliner was off course by several miles to the south, and commenced a pre-mature descent below the MOCA.
---------- ADS -----------
 
55+
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:49 pm

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by 55+ »

For LF airways/routes construction & design, the primary area for obstacle consideration is 4.34nm each side and parallel to the segment centreline. The secondary area is an additional 4.34 nm on top of the 4.34nm for primary. The system accuracy lines for primary are drawn 5 deg each side commencing at both facilities and for secondary it is 7.5 degrees . That is quite a bit of real estate to wander around in and still be accurate within the confines of the design criteria.

But as suggested, LF airways are 1950's steam driven technology...........................
---------- ADS -----------
 
niss
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6745
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:54 pm
Location: I'm a CPL trapped in a PPL's Body.
Contact:

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by niss »

My ADF wont spin the first digit, its stuck displaying 5 but is actually set to god knows what. I bet thats what happened to Amelia Earhart.
---------- ADS -----------
 
She’s built like a Steakhouse, but she handles like a Bistro.

Let's kick the tires, and light the fires.... SHIT! FIRE! EMERGENCY CHECKLIST!
Big Pistons Forever
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5927
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Tracking outbound from Hope on the airway to YKA has never worked. In the pre GPS days....wait.... you young ones might want to cover your eyes now as we are about to talk scary grown up stuff :wink: ..... anyway after intially doing the Transport way of tracking half way by time and then switching over, I always ended up way off track so I ended up just switched right over to Kamloops as soon as I went by Hope. If you got a good pass over Hope and set up a heading with a bit of body english for the winds you very quickly got a good solid bearing to the TKA beacon. Ahh for the good old days.....may they never return :D . I was just looking in my log book and near as I can figure Nov of 1994 was the last time I had to depend on the ADF alone without a GPS to assist. 8)
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: Hope NDB Error

Post by Cat Driver »

I still long for riding the twilight zone of the range leg and as I get close to the transmitters narrowing it down to the steady hum and hitting the cone of silence...now that is aviating IFR in its purest form.

Anything else is just using a crutch. :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”