Sterile Cockpits threatened
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Sterile Cockpits threatened
Ground control transmissions are rebroadcasted on tower frequencies when controllers are on coofee breaks.
This practice means the cockpit is filled with non essental transmissions for the aircraft on the roll, or on short final. I am an old fart, but i still need the sterile cockpit to focus for any conlict or emergency.
This frequency coupling has now been introduced at Winnipeg/St andrews in the abonitio enviornment mixed with five 703 and 704 operators.
Please help claim our cockpits back by supplying the accident reports, research links, and emails to the St. andrews control tower standards officers, and the readers of avcanada to support our claim.
"Howe, Bill" <HoweB@navcanada.ca>, "Gobert, Gilles" <GobertG@navcanada.ca>
This practice means the cockpit is filled with non essental transmissions for the aircraft on the roll, or on short final. I am an old fart, but i still need the sterile cockpit to focus for any conlict or emergency.
This frequency coupling has now been introduced at Winnipeg/St andrews in the abonitio enviornment mixed with five 703 and 704 operators.
Please help claim our cockpits back by supplying the accident reports, research links, and emails to the St. andrews control tower standards officers, and the readers of avcanada to support our claim.
"Howe, Bill" <HoweB@navcanada.ca>, "Gobert, Gilles" <GobertG@navcanada.ca>
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Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
Pitt Meadows (CYPK) near vancouver does this all the time! It is mainly a training airport, but they also quite often have simultaneous skydiving/gliding/banner towing operations. It is very annoying when you have a bunch of people making an initial call and congesting the frequency when you are on short final waiting for a landing clearance. This has not caused any major problems yet, but you can see them coming......
son: Dad, when I grow up I want to be a pilot!
Dad: Son, i'm sorry, but you can't do both!
Dad: Son, i'm sorry, but you can't do both!
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Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
Flight Safety, SimCom, Airline Programs, Safety Seminars, are in business of reducing Human Factors in Aviation are in business making billions, and NAV CANADA is comprimising all this to reduce positions .. privitising ATC will cause Human Factors Senerios to skyrocket. I was told by a controller that "the company has insurance for these mistakes" HOLEE, will my handle will need to be "witness navcanada"
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Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
Do the majors AirCanada, WestJet , FirstAir , or other 704 operational procedures limit what frequencies are only monitored or not monitored on take off or landing ?
Can AirCanada, WestJet, FirstAir or others' procedures tolerate ground and tower transmissions concurrently recieved in the cockpit for take off and landing ?
Should towers designed for multi positions be manned with one controller ? Should 2 crew designed aircraft be manned with one pilot ?
Where is the ATC industry taking us ?
Can AirCanada, WestJet, FirstAir or others' procedures tolerate ground and tower transmissions concurrently recieved in the cockpit for take off and landing ?
Should towers designed for multi positions be manned with one controller ? Should 2 crew designed aircraft be manned with one pilot ?
Where is the ATC industry taking us ?
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Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
Seems to me it only happens when things are quiet enough for transmissions not to overlap. I personally enjoy it, though I can appreciate how it may not be ideal for ab initio training. Ultimately it's a better scenario than losing the control tower permanently.
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Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
There is definately a staffing issue with Nav Canada. However, if the staff is not available to fill the positions I personally think its safer for ground and tower to be coupled. Flying into a control zone where one controller is operating both positions I would want to know how busy he is so I don't interupt what traffic he is already trying to juggle.
We will suffer delays and this should be addressed, but in the meantime... Maybe we should start paying people more throughout the industry...
We will suffer delays and this should be addressed, but in the meantime... Maybe we should start paying people more throughout the industry...
Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
Couple years back, I witnessed Tower issuing a revisedWhere is the ATC industry taking us?
IFR clearance to a large aircraft - during it's takeoff roll.
The captain tore a strip off the ATC'er for doing so. Tower
shrugged and replied, "I thought that was why you had
two pilots".
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Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
I don't really understand the issue. Is the controller is abandoning the position with ground and tower coupled or is he working both ground and air and you are hearing both on the frequency?? You want to have radio silence when departing or arriving, or you're ok with having a busy tower frequency in your ear but not tower and ground? Does it really matter if its ground frequency or tower that's filling your ear with noise?
Sterile cockpit... have you ever flown in congested airspace??? I'm hoping I'm not understanding the question, otherwise I'm at a loss for words...
The reason we couple, is so that we don't miss calls. If there is one controller running two or more frequencies, we are listening to all the calls on one headset. When the system is setup without it being coupled, you can have someone calling you on ground and the person on air won't hear them, they'll only hear your reply. So instead of waiting for radio silence to make your call, you unknowingly talk over top of them. So now the controller has missed both calls and has to go back and ask each person to say again only separately. You never know when to make your call as you can't tell if someone else is talking or not. As both a controller and a pilot, I hate having two frequencies being run without them being coupled. When you couple them, all transmissions that the controller is having to deal with, are also being broadcast on the other frequencies. You know when he's busy and don't interrupt. Having to listen to ground traffic, is a small price to pay when it means that you're not having two people talking at once and the controller not receiving your transmissions. I'm no TSB employee but I would imagine missed calls would be far more dangerous than a noisy headset.
Sterile cockpit... have you ever flown in congested airspace??? I'm hoping I'm not understanding the question, otherwise I'm at a loss for words...
The reason we couple, is so that we don't miss calls. If there is one controller running two or more frequencies, we are listening to all the calls on one headset. When the system is setup without it being coupled, you can have someone calling you on ground and the person on air won't hear them, they'll only hear your reply. So instead of waiting for radio silence to make your call, you unknowingly talk over top of them. So now the controller has missed both calls and has to go back and ask each person to say again only separately. You never know when to make your call as you can't tell if someone else is talking or not. As both a controller and a pilot, I hate having two frequencies being run without them being coupled. When you couple them, all transmissions that the controller is having to deal with, are also being broadcast on the other frequencies. You know when he's busy and don't interrupt. Having to listen to ground traffic, is a small price to pay when it means that you're not having two people talking at once and the controller not receiving your transmissions. I'm no TSB employee but I would imagine missed calls would be far more dangerous than a noisy headset.
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Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
[quote="SKYPILOT1956"]
Should towers designed for multi positions be manned with one controller ? Should 2 crew designed aircraft be manned with one pilot ?
scrambled_legs .. we have flown in congested airspace, and all the more important that pilots hear the other traffic. Coupling ground traffic with air traffic is not congested airspace, its only a cost saving measure because positions have been cut to below "minimum crew" requirements. The small price to pay will be fatal, and he will not be from atc .
never has an air traffic controller died in a mid-air collision.
Should towers designed for multi positions be manned with one controller ? Should 2 crew designed aircraft be manned with one pilot ?
scrambled_legs .. we have flown in congested airspace, and all the more important that pilots hear the other traffic. Coupling ground traffic with air traffic is not congested airspace, its only a cost saving measure because positions have been cut to below "minimum crew" requirements. The small price to pay will be fatal, and he will not be from atc .
never has an air traffic controller died in a mid-air collision.
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Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
I agree fully, there shouldn't be staff cut for no good reason. A case in point is a short overtime shift. Why, when they are paying you twice as much, is it no longer necessary for someone to be there for their full shift but when being paid straight time, they have to stay the full length due safety.
On the other hand, skypilot doesn't appear to be complaining about the reduction in staff but rather having pilots/controllers talking in his ear when he's trying to land. Like I said before, I hope I'm misreading the question because if someone talking in your ear jeopardizes your safety, you really should stay out of controlled airspace.
Coupling frequencies is not cutting positions. It's an advancement in the technology so aircraft can operate on more then one frequency without constantly stepping on each other, or worse yet, having the controller run back and forth between two handsets. With coupling you can safely merge two or more frequencies onto one, the only change is that the pilots now know whenever you're running single stand. It increases safety significantly and permits you to control a higher volume of traffic on separate frequencies by combining it into one. Hopefully knowing that will open up Skypilots eyes cause right now it sounds like he's on a mission to decrease safety at his field.
On the other hand, skypilot doesn't appear to be complaining about the reduction in staff but rather having pilots/controllers talking in his ear when he's trying to land. Like I said before, I hope I'm misreading the question because if someone talking in your ear jeopardizes your safety, you really should stay out of controlled airspace.
Coupling frequencies is not cutting positions. It's an advancement in the technology so aircraft can operate on more then one frequency without constantly stepping on each other, or worse yet, having the controller run back and forth between two handsets. With coupling you can safely merge two or more frequencies onto one, the only change is that the pilots now know whenever you're running single stand. It increases safety significantly and permits you to control a higher volume of traffic on separate frequencies by combining it into one. Hopefully knowing that will open up Skypilots eyes cause right now it sounds like he's on a mission to decrease safety at his field.
Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
At many towers and ACC Sectors, the only way to take a meal, washroom, or relief break is to combine positions. This is nothing new. Only the unit equipment has changed to allow the coupling. There has been so many times on the old equipment or new equipment without coupling enabled that two people have called at once and both totally drowned out each other and you hear nothing. With coupling it allows the transmissions to come through at a manageable level so that it doesn't get overwhelming quickly.
Also please remember that we just don't work the frequencies. At our unit we have 3 phone lines, a 400 line (hardwired phone with Centre/FIC), and a direct hotline with the ACC. If you don't hear us answering immediately on the frequencies, we're probably talking to centre taking an estimate, writing down a flight plan from FSS, or finishing a line in the ATIS. Up to 6 people can be calling us at once. All this is happening while we visually scan outside the windows locating traffic, visually monitoring for compliance, scanning runways and taxiways, and write info on our control strips. And I work in a small unit. Our ACC sector (North Low, YZF sector), a single person works an area the size of Quebec and New Brunswick combined. There are a lot of frequencies and coordination required to keep everyone safe and separated.
I'd love more staff, but it's probably not going to happen. There is a world-wide ATC shortage.
Also please remember that we just don't work the frequencies. At our unit we have 3 phone lines, a 400 line (hardwired phone with Centre/FIC), and a direct hotline with the ACC. If you don't hear us answering immediately on the frequencies, we're probably talking to centre taking an estimate, writing down a flight plan from FSS, or finishing a line in the ATIS. Up to 6 people can be calling us at once. All this is happening while we visually scan outside the windows locating traffic, visually monitoring for compliance, scanning runways and taxiways, and write info on our control strips. And I work in a small unit. Our ACC sector (North Low, YZF sector), a single person works an area the size of Quebec and New Brunswick combined. There are a lot of frequencies and coordination required to keep everyone safe and separated.
I'd love more staff, but it's probably not going to happen. There is a world-wide ATC shortage.
Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
"There is a world wide ATC shortage."
So NavCan solution is to promote a 'reduction ' of aircraft?
I can see both sides of this but nobody is considering that a controler/FSS person is trained and becomes a highly acomplished 'multi-tasker' on communications. (every working hour)
A pilot on the other hand is resonably acomplished at comm, ( not every working hour) but is also carrying on his highly acomplished task of flying a plane which requires as little interuption as possible, the comm factor rises at the most critical times; landing and takeoff.
So NavCan solution is to promote a 'reduction ' of aircraft?
I can see both sides of this but nobody is considering that a controler/FSS person is trained and becomes a highly acomplished 'multi-tasker' on communications. (every working hour)
A pilot on the other hand is resonably acomplished at comm, ( not every working hour) but is also carrying on his highly acomplished task of flying a plane which requires as little interuption as possible, the comm factor rises at the most critical times; landing and takeoff.
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Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
Coupling frequencies enables the same amount of bodies to run more aircraft on more frequencies than before, so I'm not quite sure how this promotes a "reduction" of aircraft.foxmoth wrote:"There is a world wide ATC shortage."
So NavCan solution is to promote a 'reduction ' of aircraft?
Yes, controllers get more practice multi tasking on communications. We are often running several frequencies, talking on hotlines, phonelines and coordinating with other controllers as well as operating several complex computer tasks involving keeping track of aircraft movements and keep the traffic picture all while manufacturing plans to keep the planes seperated. Comm's are our primary task though.I can see both sides of this but nobody is considering that a controler/FSS person is trained and becomes a highly acomplished 'multi-tasker' on communications. (every working hour)
A pilot on the other hand is resonably acomplished at comm, ( not every working hour) but is also carrying on his highly acomplished task of flying a plane which requires as little interuption as possible, the comm factor rises at the most critical times; landing and takeoff.
Pilots on the other hand have a lot more computer, technical issues as their primary tasks and comm is secondary. That being said, they don't have to understand or comprehend a word that is coming out of their headset unless it begins with their ident. If you are unable to handle your aircraft and maintain a listening watch for your call sign, then you don't belong in controlled airspace. Bottom line, some people can't operate radios. They may be amazing, talented pilots but unless they can talk and fly at the same time, they should stick to 126.7.
I don't mean to pick on skypilot but I find it baffling that someone would actually state that they "need the sterile cockpit to focus for any conlict or emergency." It sounds like he'd rather not have ATC there and just watch for the planes that he's about to run into. The skills of a pilot are not simply stick and rudder. I can't stand when instructors base their students ability to go solo, only on their take offs and landings. A monkey can keep a Cessna upright, often the most important and last skill to be mastered is the radio work. There is way too little time spent on radio work, in comparison to the amount of time spent learning skills that they will often never use, like soft field landings. Try flying into NY approach where the controller doesn't even have time to let the aircraft respond and uses "break" more often then "roger". I remember being handed off and couldn't report for almost 10 min's. Sorry to be harsh but when you're complaining about frequency congestion at a field that is so slow, that they regularly have tower and ground combined, then you really need to wake up and get prepared for the real world. Busy frequencies are an excellent training opportunity. It's time to change your instructing practices rather than start a campaign to limit our ability to safely handle two frequencies at once.
MorganAirCFI hit it bang on by the way. If its staffing your complaining about... I agree. If it's coupling frequencies that you're upset about... you've lost me at Hello.
Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
Filed an ASR 2 days ago about YVR tower giving push back and taxi clearance on tower frequency way to much distraction and chatting on tower frequency during landing......they could at least cut the feed back from ground on the tower frequency...
Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
I did ATC training for two years(didnt make it), but i am familiar with the concept of coupling the freq's and why it has to be done. I have noticed when flying to the states that the coupling of freq's is different down there.
In Canada the freq's are coupled so that all aircraft on multiple freq's can hear each other talking so as not to have multiple xmissions going to the controller at once.
In the US, it seems that they couple the freq's so that everytime the controller transmits it is heard on all freq's, but the aircraft is only heard on the freq that he is currently on. Not sure if they just dont have the advanced technology down there, or if they prefer this method to reduce transmission clutter. It seems like it might be harder for the ATC that way though.
my 2 cents.
TT
In Canada the freq's are coupled so that all aircraft on multiple freq's can hear each other talking so as not to have multiple xmissions going to the controller at once.
In the US, it seems that they couple the freq's so that everytime the controller transmits it is heard on all freq's, but the aircraft is only heard on the freq that he is currently on. Not sure if they just dont have the advanced technology down there, or if they prefer this method to reduce transmission clutter. It seems like it might be harder for the ATC that way though.
my 2 cents.
TT
Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
What Tiny describes in the US isn't coupling. Depending upon the time of day I can have over a dozen frequencies that I am transmitting on at the same time. When A/C will only hear what is on the frequency they are on. Whether I couple them or not is another story. Without coupling I receive a number of calls on different frequencies at the same time. Most times I can pick them out, occasionally I have to take time to sort it out. The problem with coupling is the low time pilots I deal with now can hog all of my frequencies instead of just one.
Coupling has nothing to do with staffing. Even in our smallest sector when everything is open we have a minimum of 2 VHF frequencies on the go at the same time. It is designed so that pilots don't step on each other. For what it's worth, Air and ground can be worked at the same time without coupling. It has been going on for years. Coupling is new where I work and while I understand the reasoning behind, I don't turn it on, nor do a number of my co workers.
Coupling has nothing to do with staffing. Even in our smallest sector when everything is open we have a minimum of 2 VHF frequencies on the go at the same time. It is designed so that pilots don't step on each other. For what it's worth, Air and ground can be worked at the same time without coupling. It has been going on for years. Coupling is new where I work and while I understand the reasoning behind, I don't turn it on, nor do a number of my co workers.
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Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
pilotbzh, if there's one controller working all the freq's and you now force him to run several seperate ones, don't be surprised if your clearance/push/taxi times are significantly increased. I know when I had to run two separate frequencies, when two people called on ground and tower, I would always tune out the ground call and wait for him to call back. If you prefer the delays over the ground feedback in your headset, then keep filling out the forms.

Seriously??? Where do you work??? You have 12 frequencies combined and rarely have more than 2 people stepping on each other?kevenv wrote: Depending upon the time of day I can have over a dozen frequencies that I am transmitting on at the same time.
To be honest I found controllers running multiple frequencies more frustrating as a pilot than as an ATC. In the US, they don't have the Voice Switch technology in most places to be able to couple frequencies. I remember one controller, when I reported on the frequency and there was no reply. It was late, so I waited a while and gave him another call. Then after a few minutes he comes back and says calling center, say it again, so I wait a while and call again. After about 5 minutes of us pilots trying to figure out who was supposed to be first in line, without hearing each other, we finally got our calls in to a very pissed off ornery old controller. If the frequency was coupled, it wouldn't have been an issue. As far as hearing two calls at once, if this is over a single headset, you must have better ears then myself and 90% of my coworkers. You do know that when someone is rambling on about something unimportant, you can still step over him with your important ATC instruction, do you?Without coupling I receive a number of calls on different frequencies at the same time. Most times I can pick them out, occasionally I have to take time to sort it out.
Another IFR controller telling us our job hahaha. I used to work at a tower that was slow enough that you could get away without coupling but that was only with running on handset/speaker and two different workstations and often ignoring ground/clearance calls. It's a technology advancement in order to keep all positions flowing smoothly, and one that I readily accept and use. By the way there was so many old guys in my past unit, that they even got rid of the ability to couple frequencies on our voice switchFor what it's worth, Air and ground can be worked at the same time without coupling. It has been going on for years. Coupling is new where I work and while I understand the reasoning behind, I don't turn it on, nor do a number of my co workers.

Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
I would have to agree YVR is one of the worst offenders for Ground/Tower operations. It is very distracting.
Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
I believe they run a north ground/tower combined quite frequently.
Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
Bingo.scrambled_legs wrote:The reason we couple, is so that we don't miss calls. If there is one controller running two or more frequencies, we are listening to all the calls on one headset. When the system is setup without it being coupled, you can have someone calling you on ground and the person on air won't hear them, they'll only hear your reply. So instead of waiting for radio silence to make your call, you unknowingly talk over top of them. So now the controller has missed both calls and has to go back and ask each person to say again only separately.
Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
Gimme a break! Wow, if someone talking in your headset is going to send you flaming into the ground, get some dual. They only couple the freq's when it gets slow. You're VFR, see and avoid! You don't get traffic conflict resolutions off the controller unless he has time for you, even though he almost surely will, and he won't wait until the very last second to do it. Your accusations are beyond ridiculous and you ought to apologize for insinuating they'd rather lose a couple lives than get another staffer in there. There's only so many employees at NavCanada and there are busier airports with higher risk that they can be put to better use at.witness keystone wrote:Should towers designed for multi positions be manned with one controller ? Should 2 crew designed aircraft be manned with one pilot ?
scrambled_legs .. we have flown in congested airspace, and all the more important that pilots hear the other traffic. Coupling ground traffic with air traffic is not congested airspace, its only a cost saving measure because positions have been cut to below "minimum crew" requirements. The small price to pay will be fatal, and he will not be from atc .
never has an air traffic controller died in a mid-air collision.
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Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened

Bring back the Radio Operator!
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Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
I thought one of the reasons to implement sterile cockpit was to reduce the unneccessary distractions in the cockpit to allow for more focus on, among other things, ATC. If they're doing simucasts in a slow environment, it shouldn't be more of a challenge than flying into a super busy airspace with multiple transmissions to multiple aircraft. Just keep quiet and listen for your callsign, yet above else, keep flying your aircraft!
Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
the final score: COUPLING FREQUENCIES 14
SKYPILOT 1
Coupling happens everywhere and it is accepted. Get used to is and just fly your aircraft. You're flying out of a grade 1 tower/airport. Sounds like that's where you belong.
SKYPILOT 1
Coupling happens everywhere and it is accepted. Get used to is and just fly your aircraft. You're flying out of a grade 1 tower/airport. Sounds like that's where you belong.
Re: Sterile Cockpits threatened
Nicely done, another Avcanada milestone has been reached; disagreeing is one thing but tossing in the gratuitous insult was, well, gratuitous. Nicely done, amphib, not all of us flyers can be Heroes of The North like you and maybe you will understand the difficulties faced by others when you encounter one yourself and only get the response of the jackasses on here.
Perhaps you've never spent a few years flying up north where the only radio transmissions are position reports. Or maybe you don't have any hearing damage yet. Suddenly being dropped into a situation where all the traffic, airborne and on the ground is bombarding you, can't you see the difficulty in confronting these changes? Change is very stressful - just ask those senior AC flight attendants facing commutes from Halifax or Winnipeg now.
To the ATC guys who explained the reasoning behind it, thank you for the effort.
Perhaps you've never spent a few years flying up north where the only radio transmissions are position reports. Or maybe you don't have any hearing damage yet. Suddenly being dropped into a situation where all the traffic, airborne and on the ground is bombarding you, can't you see the difficulty in confronting these changes? Change is very stressful - just ask those senior AC flight attendants facing commutes from Halifax or Winnipeg now.
To the ATC guys who explained the reasoning behind it, thank you for the effort.
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