Flying vs. ATC

[TrippleFlap]

Any pilots here that moved from flying to ATC?
Was it worth it? Is that a good move?

[scrambled_legs]

Flying is exciting, you get to travel with work, move from job to job and the pay sucks.

ATC is kinda boring, you don't get to move at all really, but you'll rarely get fired and the pays great.

It just depends what you're looking for. If its the white picket fence house with 2 new cars in the drive, a wife and a job... go ATC

If its the shared rented apartment at 35 with a K car in the drive, 5 wives 1 of which is current and a different exciting thrilling job each year... go Flying.

The big difference is no-one will do our job for free, so we get paid fairly well for it and there's no-one waiting to replace us with licence in hand.

[SkyWolfe]

That sounds about right,

[No_Delay]

I'm an ex pilot, now enroute controller. Anyone with cash can get their commercial flying license (although not necessarily a job). For ATC, the only chance of getting a license ( and a guaranteed job) is by being one out of the 33% successful students invited to train, after being shortlisted from the top 3 to 5% of hundreds who write the exam score and actually get an interviews.

ATC is much more challenging, and I would disagree that it is boring.. Although I am kind of new.

[priceless]

Are you coming from the airlines? have many people done that? im curious about the benefits and actaul pay, other than the website states. also the process from aplication to licenseing, granted your successful of course. with state of the industry and the desire for somthing more stable, it may be worth looking in to.

[invertedattitude]

ATC definately isn't "Boring" Although you can have entire shifts where you rotate through some slower sectors, and then another where you can be balls to the wall the whole day.

I'm not an "Ex" pilot, I still exercise my commercial license on a casual basis, and I work as a Controller.

I gotta be honest, considering right now I'd likely be in Upper Rubber Boot flying a rat trap death trap skud running crates of powdered milk, I'm pretty happy I'm in the top 1% of income earners here

[scrambled_legs]

yawn...

[TrippleFlap]

I am not from airlines. I only have commercial license and now at the point where i need to decide either throw $12000-15000
for Multi IFR and start looking for flying job OR apply at NavCanada for ATC .

[SkyWolfe]

I made the first mistake, just go to ATC if your feeling the pull. Then you can have enough money to actually pay for the MIFR later

[scrambled_legs]

Actually the odds say you'll be back on the street after wasting upwards of 2 years in training, tuition costs, etc. with even less money to pay for your MIFR. Going ATC now adays can be more costly then putting in for some extra training and low paying jobs, not to mention a huge waste of valuable training time for a career that doesn't offer a second chance.

If you already have your commercial, you have to decide what you want to do. The careers are very different and you shouldn't waste your time or money, pursuing one if you know you want the other. Look at the lifestyles above and see which one appeals to you. Security, high salary, time off and not as much thrill or do you prefer mobility, excitement and no security or gaurantee of a good income. Don't go and get your MIFR and expect to receive a job. Get an instructors rating, or a job on the ramp. Your MIFR will expire before you get your first pay cheque flying a 152. If you have time to build and all the requirements met, other than the time for your commercial, then yes consider it. Otherwise, save it for later and pay for some training that is actually usefull in the short term.

That's just my opinion take it for what its worth. Myself personally, I sometimes kick myself for not sticking with flying during the slow time as all my friends are sitting in some pretty big metal now and have pretty exciting jobs with world wide opportunities. Myself, I chose to bail out after the 9/11 and have a life outside of work. I went ATC for the money and the time off but sometimes sitting in my glass tower either bored as hell or stressed out, watching everyone else have fun flying the heavy metal can be fucking annoying. The grass is always greener on the other side I guess.

[AUGER9]

If you already have your commercial, you have to decide what you want to do.

If you have your commercial, you have already decided what you want to do IMO.

[SkyWolfe]

Unless outside situations persuade you to a career change.

[invertedattitude]

If you already have your commercial, you have to decide what you want to do.

If you have your commercial, you have already decided what you want to do IMO.

I got my commercial in 04, I went the ATC route, but I would also agree it's definately not a safe bet, landing a flying job is still far easier than getting into ATC these days.

[JigglyBus]

Agreed.

ATC is more stable once you check out, but check out odds are very poor.

It use to be more viable when you were paid 50k ish while training IFR but nowadays you could easily find yourself 18 months in, CT'ed and never having made a single dollar.

[invertedattitude]

Agreed.

ATC is more stable once you check out, but check out odds are very poor.

It use to be more viable when you were paid 50k ish while training IFR but nowadays you could easily find yourself 18 months in, CT'ed and never having made a single dollar.

Well 9-10 months maybe, trainees are paid the incredible salary of 32K/year once they hit the floor and begin OJT.

Still unless you're under mommy and daddies wing, or are willing to work while training you're going a year with no income.

[GilletteNorth]

Which in my view is why the 5 year limit on the EOCO program should be reduced to a maximum of 2 years, which is the same as the minimum time you must spend in an isolated posting after qualification. What's the big deal? NavCanada doesn't want to provide ATSAC members with a paycheck while in the program. They'd rather try to 'save money' by having ab-initio students start from outside the company. With the EOCO program, NavCanada gets someone who is already familiar with the it's equipment and procedures going through training with a paycheck. If they don't check out they return to FSS and still re-qualify faster than the time it takes to train ab-initio hires off the street. I'd bet most ab-initio trainees who fail in the ATC stream just drop out of NavCanada entirely rather than attempt the FSS stream. An EOCO program trainee with a paycheck means NavCanada is paying to reserve the skills of someone trying to 'upgrade' within the system, since failure means they still have someone who is employable in the FSS field. Having a paycheck would make it less stressful on the trainee, enabling them to have a higher chance to checkout successfully without worrying as much about financial considerations. Success with EOCO means a new controller with a better understanding of both FSS and ATC. Isn't the cost of the paycheck worth that? A 5 year wait is just a method to discourage FSS people from moving up.

Well why doesn't the company pay everyone trying to become ATC? Easy answer is then anyone needing somewhere to stay for 2 years would apply, be accepted, get paid a wage for 2 years while 'training' and then leave. FSS have already shown their dedication to being a part of the ATS. It's unlikely they would quit NavCanada if they were unsuccessful and shouldn't be penalized for trying to move up.

The company 'talks the talk' about FSS employees having opportunities to 'better themselves' but doesn't 'walk the walk' in my opinion.

[invertedattitude]

Only about 10% of applications result in being accepted for VFR/IFR training... so the theory that people looking for a place to live would apply is kinda bogus.

[scrambled_legs]

Not to mention that they'd be kicked out after the first test.

It sounds great to upgrade the FSS but its the companies worst move in my opinion, speaking purely from a business/money aspect.

It's been proven time and time again that FSS have no better odds at receiving a licence then the ab-initios so its not a good stepping stone. Not only that, but they would also be paying to have someone leave a position that they paid big bucks to train them in. They just forked out big bucks to train you to fill a hole in the FSS field, and when you switch they'll have to pay for someone to train in your position as well as someone to train them as well as pay you to train and someone to train you. They're now paying 4 people when if they pulled someone off the street straight into ATC they only have to pay 2, so why they'd ever encourage you to leave it is beyond me. If you don't make it at ATC, sure you may go back but if you were never given the opportunity, you'd probably not quit FSS either so by not allowing you to transfer they're preventing an unnecessary vacancy.

It sucks, but if its what you really want, you should have started there.

[KAFUFO]

Please if you have any type of flying experiance move to YWG the amature hour that is demonstrated at that center is embarasing.

Having said that it's not like they have transvestites there. Now we will deffinitly not discuss the YWG tower because that might be a sensitive topic.

as far as the shhit pay. It only happenes as long as your willing to put up with it. Missinippi has KA captians with under 1500 hrs making 65K/annum plus perdiem Borek has T/O Captians making 100K 4 years in. if your willing to work for shit in this industry apply to keystone. If your smart reaseach a job that you want. If you want to tell pilots where to go get into dispatch. If you are required to wear a hockey helmet off the ice talk to jerricho (he doesen't hire rather he tolerates) He could probibly get you in

Sorry Jerrico but you are still surrounded by retards. But hey it's got to feel good to be by far the best controller in the center

[grimey]

experiance ... amature ... embarasing.

transvestites

deffinitly ... shhit ... happenes ... captians ... Captians ... reaseach ... probibly

Why is it that the only big word you spelled correctly is transvestites? Wearing a dress with your helmet?

[GilletteNorth]

Heh...

the theory that people looking for a place to live would apply is kinda bogus.
Only about 10% of applications result in being accepted for VFR/IFR training... so the theory that people looking for a place to live would apply is kinda bogus.

Kinda bogus but not entirely unplausible

Scrambled, I hear what you're saying too, but FSS have moved up to other positions in the company without a special program or a 5 year wait. Think team supervisors, NOTAM office specialists, Regional FSS specialists and even management. The 5 yr wait is specifically meant to discourage FSS from changing fields into ATC.
Your 4 people/2 people argument thingy is a bit strange. When ATC needs new people, NavCanada doesn't suddenly train someone (to be an ATC instructor) to train someone else (the newbie to the ATC stream) and also train another (FSS instructor) to train someone else (the newbie to the FSS stream). That's the way I read your explanation anyway.
There are always trainers around for new trainees, so yes they'd have to train someone up to fill the role of the FSS leaving for the ATC stream. That makes one extra, not 4. Anyhow... lotsa FSS stations have and will continue to run short staffed, so training someone new to fill the vacated FSS position might not happen either.
I think FSS experience would be an asset to anyone who completed the training into ATC. THAT is part what I'm saying pay them for while training. If they don't have a higher check-out rate, it's neither here nor there. You are paying to have them available again if they fail since they still won't quit and return to 'civvie life' afterwards. You are also paying them to reduced the unneeded stress of worrying financially while in training so they can concentrate on checking out.
If it's about the money, there is not that much difference between paying a FSS (who gets a much smaller paycheck than qualified ATC anyway) to go through training compared to an ab-initio ATC wannabe. ATC recruits do a much shorter initial training course than FSS and then start getting the AI-00 paycheck while doing the 11/2-2 year checkout at a center.
NavCanada introduced the initial fee for ATC so they could get the ATC course accredited and offer it like a university course. This will make money for them since the 'students' going through can come from anywhere in the world. They can train people for other countries who return to their homeland and check out back there. THAT'S why there's a charge and why they don't get paid during the initial training. But once 'students' get to the centers they become employees at AI-00 (lowest ATC pay scale) and start the check out.
The monetary difference between AI-00 and a RO-02/RO-03 is not some huge millions of dollars amount. Yes there is a difference, yes continuing to pay a FSS their salary while in training is more than paying the AI-00, but I repeat, not a huge amount. AI-00 pay is 27-30k per annum, compared to RO-02/03 45-66k.
So you are arguing that for a few FSS who want to move up, NavCanada's incredible burden of paying (at maximum) 39k difference per annum justifies a 5 yr wait?
It's ridiculous and just one of the BS rules ATSAC agreed to.

In case you're wondering, I am not applying for the EOCO program. I just find it stupid for those who do want to apply to have to wait so long. Besides, they still have the hoop of getting there manager's recommendation... which also may never come.

[grimey]

The monetary difference between AI-00 and a RO-02/RO-03 is not some huge millions of dollars amount. Yes there is a difference, yes continuing to pay a FSS their salary while in training is more than paying the AI-00, but I repeat, not a huge amount. AI-00 pay is 27-30k per annum, compared to RO-02/03 45-66k.
So you are arguing that for a few FSS who want to move up, NavCanada's incredible burden of paying (at maximum) 39k difference per annum justifies a 5 yr wait?
It's ridiculous and just one of the BS rules ATSAC agreed to.

They also have to pay to train a new FSS, which is where the bulk of the difference in cost is. It isn't that the FSS is making more while in training than a guy off the street, it's that they also have to pay to screen, move, train, and qualify another FSS. It effectively doubles their costs vs. training someone off the street for ATC.

[scrambled_legs]

They also have to pay to train a new FSS, which is where the bulk of the difference in cost is. It isn't that the FSS is making more while in training than a guy off the street, it's that they also have to pay to screen, move, train, and qualify another FSS. It effectively doubles their costs vs. training someone off the street for ATC.

Exactly... and we all know that its all about the money even though it's a not for profit company.

Sure its not fair but its cheaper to keep FSS as FSS and ATC holes plugged with people applying for ATC off the street. If it was an easy process, you'd probably have 50% of the FSS staff giving it a shot simply because... "why not". I heard a figure that it costs over $200,000 to train a VFR employee and far more for IFR. These costs wouldn't change if its someone off the street or from FSS but you'd still have the costs to plug the FSS hole that you created when you left. If on top of it the FSS employee being trained in ATC really wasn't commited to going VFR, rather just giving it a try as they wouldn't lose pay, seniority, etc. like you appear to be fighting for, then you'd be forking out 200g for someone that probably isn't going to make it.

If you want something to complain about that doesn't make sense, why not take a look at the new simulators replacing the 360... it's all about the money. Microsoft Flight sim at bulk on a few computer screens replacing a complex well designed simulator that really simulates.

[yrp]

ATC recruits do a much shorter initial training course than FSS and then start getting the AI-00 paycheck while doing the 11/2-2 year checkout at a center.
<snip>
But once 'students' get to the centers they become employees at AI-00 (lowest ATC pay scale) and start the check out.

I think your information is a bit dated. IFR students aren't paid until they hit the floor, which is about 11 months into the program. They get paid about $33K for the last 10-12 months of training only.

I believe this changed when the IFR training moved to the regions.

[W0XOF]

So you are arguing that for a few FSS who want to move up, NavCanada's incredible burden of paying (at maximum) 39k difference per annum justifies a 5 yr wait?
It's ridiculous and just one of the BS rules ATSAC agreed to.

The EOCO program has nothing to do with ATSAC or CATCA. It is a company program which does not have to be consulted with by the unions. Try to find it in the contract. You won't.

You say a "few FSS". When the EOCO program initially came out (before they put in the 5 yr wait), 120 FSS applied. With around 900 members at that time, that is hardly a few. Over 13% of our total membership. That is one of the reasons why there is the 5 yr wait, plus management recommendations.

I agree with Scrambled.