For years and years I have heard over canadian VHF radios pilots when switching from one freq to another and the first word they utter is the the word "and", for example;

"......and centre this is ABC123 level one seven thousand".

....I'm not sure using the word "AND" to start any communiqué, whether in person, writing OR radio is proper, AND not to mention it is driving me nuts to hear on the radio

So the question now is as I have heard it more and more over the radio from AC to WJ from C150 egg beaters to B777 left seaters...

Lets start with the Dictionary definition of this word.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/and

and   /ænd; unstressed ənd, ən, or, especially after a homorganic consonant, n/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [and; unstressed uhnd, uhn, or, especially after a homorganic consonant, n]

1. (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover: pens and pencils.
2. added to; plus: 2 and 2 are 4.
3. then: He read for an hour and went to bed.
4. also, at the same time: to sleep and dream.
5. then again; repeatedly: He coughed and coughed.
6. (used to imply different qualities in things having the same name): There are bargains and bargains, so watch out.
7. (used to introduce a sentence, implying continuation) also; then: And then it happened.
8. Informal. to (used between two finite verbs): Try and do it. Call and see if she's home yet.
9. (used to introduce a consequence or conditional result): He felt sick and decided to lie down for a while. Say one more word about it and I'll scream.
10. but; on the contrary: He tried to run five miles and couldn't. They said they were about to leave and then stayed for two more hours.
11. (used to connect alternatives): He felt that he was being forced to choose between his career and his family.
12. (used to introduce a comment on the preceding clause): They don't like each other—and with good reason.
13. Archaic. if: and you please. Compare an 2 .
–noun
14. an added condition, stipulation, detail, or particular: He accepted the job, no ands or buts about it.
15. conjunction (def. 5b).
—Idioms16. and so forth, and the like; and others; et cetera: We discussed traveling, sightseeing, and so forth.
17. and so on, and more things or others of a similar kind; and the like: It was a summer filled with parties, picnics, and so on.

I think # 11 is the only scenario where using the word AND to begin a communiqué applies in aviation.

Example:

"aaaaand Toronto centre, this is ABC123...I left my wife....level @ oneseven thousand."


Other than that, we as pilots should NOT being using the word and at the start of any radio communiqué.

And....The End

Sure........

Nor should you be using, "this is" & "level at"

I have given up caring about what people say on the radio

it's usually not a big deal

used to drive me nuts, though

Agreed. irritating habit. How about "we" for a single-pilot plane?

maybe it's a Royal "We"?

"We" being me and the plane...duh

husky wrote:"We" being me and the plane...duh

I've used it in that context quite a few times, not sure why I do though. I've also caught myself saying ill be taxiing "into" the fuel tanks, not "over to".

Chatting about this stuff is just another way to try to maintain a standard, not perfection, but good enough that it doesn't affect anyone adversely in one manner or another. It's like Lurch's post about a controller using "sure" in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=68&t=47668
It's good that people like IABD keep reminding us of stuff like this because it keeps everyone honest and thinking.

yzfer wrote:

husky wrote:"We" being me and the plane...duh

I've used it in that context quite a few times, not sure why I do though. I've also caught myself saying ill be taxiing "into" the fuel tanks, not "over to".

Glad to hear I'm not the only one. I used to laugh at myself for doing this too. 'We?!?'
I also seemed to talk to myself once in a while so I figured maybe I was developing multiple personalities.

Willo Three Bravo wrote:Nor should you be using, "this is" & "level at"

Buah hahaha!!! ...dude you soooo busted me there

REALLY!? "this is" and "level @" has been off the menu?? Since when??

I figure they stopped sending me my 'AIP' updates in the mail that there were no amendments for the last 4 years

Anyway, the theme behind my post was that I was curious as to why a lot of people begin their initial transmissions with the word "AND"...I'm far from being an English teacher but I would love any input into this verbal treand that grammatically does not make sence.

I'm not really trying to point fingers, just asking for thoughts from anyone with an English PHD on why this seems to be the case in many instances on the radio.

I never really understood it either although I say it on occasion and must have picked it up from others. I suppose it depends on whether the frequency is congested or dead. If you're the first person to speak in 10 minutes and start off with "and" it does sound strange, no doubt about that. But if it's a busy frequency it might go something like "center, AC123 level 370" and then right away I come in with "and centre, ABC321 level 250" or something. Even though the different call signs should be sufficient to differentiate between aircraft, the "and" adds a little extra. I'm not saying it makes any sense, but that's sort of how I rationalize it, anyway.

.......annnnnnd........midnight shifts on Christmas suck!

Actually, I much prefer them to the 12 hr 6:30 am to 6:30 pm shift that one of my coworkers is going to get today!

Rob Benusic, CYEG Tower

PS, It'll be fun clearing Santa around Edmonton and Leduc!

One of my favs is "Center, this is ABC with a request.."
Why not just make your request?? "Center, this is ABC requesting FL220..." Too hard for ya?

And, um, er, have a merry Christmas!

While I fully appreciate pilots taking a genuine concern for phraseology, I find it amusing that the almost every time there is a phraseology complaint, it's from a pilot, not ATC.

If I ragged on a pilot everytime they said something non-standard I'd never stop talking, and 90% of the traffic I work areconsidered to be piloted by the most professional flight crews on the planet.

If you're concerned about "And" you're going to have a long career.

invertedattitude wrote: If you're concerned about "And" you're going to have a long career.

No, no, no. I'm not concerned about proper radio phrasiology, this particular post isn't about that. I don't think I made my question clear. I am curious as to WHY pilots going from one different freq to another, on initial contact they say "....and....centre" etc... like they were continuing a conversation.

The word "and" is a conjunction, to link two clauses together. How does that apply in the rhythm of speach during radio communications? Is it because we feel we are linking the freqs together to continue our flight??

Anyway, it's no biggie but I found that grammatically it didn't make any sence. But who am I to judge. I only speak 4 (four) languages.

I am Birddog wrote:

I am curious as to WHY pilots going from one different freq to another, on initial contact they say "....and....centre" etc... like they were continuing a conversation.

I've found that many (including myself at times) pilots get a brain fart when on initial contact which leaves that dreaded 1/2 second pause of uncertainty.... The word ''AND'' gives us that time to ''re-think'' what we were planning on saying.
Bad habit? Yes. End of the world? Err...AND I Don't think so

TeePeeCreeper wrote:

I am Birddog wrote:

I am curious as to WHY pilots going from one different freq to another, on initial contact they say "....and....centre" etc... like they were continuing a conversation.

I've found that many (including myself at times) pilots get a brain fart when on initial contact which leaves that dreaded 1/2 second pause of uncertainty.... The word ''AND'' gives us that time to ''re-think'' what we were planning on saying.
Bad habit? Yes. End of the world? Err...AND I Don't think so

...and...I think you may have it there. That may be the answer, for the most part.

Brain Farts....who knew!?
...and...thank you

Substituting err for and? It's definately a possibility and has become a phenomenon that has seemingly caught on across the country. It's not right to do nor is it wrong, persay, it's just unneccesary. I'm not pointing any fingers here but when it comes to life, driving, flying, etc, we all form habits, some good and some bad. Knowing when to prune a bad habit and replace it with a good one is what makes us professionals.

Guilty of the "and" thing now and then but worked on it to rid myself of it. I do use "we" even when I'm flying the Caravan... No idea why.

Pet peeve though is AC pilots adding an "s" to their call sign. As in: "Centre it's Air Canadas 412 level 220..."
Gah! Mostly noticed it around YYZ though.

V1 Rotate wrote: Pet peeve though is AC pilots adding an "s" to their call sign. As in: "Centre it's Air Canadas 412 level 220..."
Gah! Mostly noticed it around YYZ though.

I KNOW!!!!!!!

Isn't that Veird?

My favorite so far is "Land on twelve Jazz 1234"

As for the "we", only if I am not alone in the airplane.

ditar wrote:I never really understood it either although I say it on occasion and must have picked it up from others. I suppose it depends on whether the frequency is congested or dead. If you're the first person to speak in 10 minutes and start off with "and" it does sound strange, no doubt about that. But if it's a busy frequency it might go something like "center, AC123 level 370" and then right away I come in with "and centre, ABC321 level 250" or something. Even though the different call signs should be sufficient to differentiate between aircraft, the "and" adds a little extra. I'm not saying it makes any sense, but that's sort of how I rationalize it, anyway.

I think anytime I have used it, it has been in that context.

I've used the "We" many times forgetting that I had just ejected all four of my passengers at 10,000 ft and on my decent, been busted for it too. Centre replies "We? Who didn't jump?" As I recall I said something like "No, No it's just me and my 182 meat bomber" As for the ...and... I have yet to catch myself saying it on initial, but on follow-up transmitions yes.