How Low Will You Go?

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FICU
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How Low Will You Go?

Post by FICU »

Remember when JetsGo was running $99 one way fares in Canada and most intelligent people in the industry knew that there was no way they were making any money with those ridiculous rates?

I just looked at a trip, Edmonton to Yellowknife on Westjet with the stunningly low fare of $115 one way. Edmonton to Vancouver is a paltry $89 bucks. Edmonton to Toronto for only $125. I can see a lower fare to YVR and YYZ since there is so much volume but $115 to Yellowknife... is this just trying to low ball the competition who will have a very hard time trying to hold their market share with these kinds of fares?

How low will you go?
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Jastapilot
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by Jastapilot »

keep an eye on the next few quarterly reports, and you'll have your answer.
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Donald
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by Donald »

Try $75 for YZF to YEG/YYC.
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FICU
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by FICU »

Donald wrote:Try $75 for YZF to YEG/YYC.
:shock:

That's a hour and a half sector from Edmonton... does Westjet have a fare of $75 on other 1.5 sectors?

The initial "low" fare that Westjet offered when they announced this new route was $150... I know First Air and Canadian North matched the fare and now Westjet has cut it half. Are they not getting the sales they expected or are they tring to kick the nothern airlines in the teeth?

Why so hostile?
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roger.roger
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by roger.roger »

are they tring to kick the nothern airlines in the teeth?
I wasen't going to say teeth, but to each his own
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mattedfred
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by mattedfred »

don't all airlines do this when they feel like it? and the airline that misses the boat complains about the airline that cut their fare first. WJ moaned when AC did it to them then WJ moaned when JetsGo did it to them and AC moans when anybody does it to them but they all do it from time to time.
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Donald
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by Donald »

Cutting a fare is one thing, giving away seats well below cost is another, imo.
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2R
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by 2R »

I ain't gonna fly on them, until they pay me to fly with them.
I might be easy, but i ain't cheap :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Flightlevels
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by Flightlevels »

I like this campaign because if the fare drops, you give a credit. The cash isn't returned. It's a future credit to be used on us which gets them back in our seat within a year before it expires. Chances are the fares will be higher too after the 3 month expiry of this campaign. Cool and smart. Hardly Jetsgo.
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Jastapilot
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by Jastapilot »

Donald wrote:Cutting a fare is one thing, giving away seats well below cost is another, imo.
so what's WJ's break even fare on the yeg-yzf run? Uh huh, thought so. :roll:
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deflux
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by deflux »

My last couple YYZ-YQT have been $39 on Jazz

I also got YEG-YYZ for $129 and YYC-YHM for the same on WJ

I feel bad for asking for the whole can with these prices...
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ahramin
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by ahramin »

We know Air Canada isn't making money, but that doesn't change with their fares.

We'll just have to wait and see if Westjet is making a mistake. So far their decisions seem to be the right ones.
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amraam
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by amraam »

Bigger question would be how many of those seats are sold at that price and how many are sold at closer to full fare? Seat sales never give a full indication as to how much money a particular flight is bringing in for revenue.

Air Canada needs to start filling the executive class seats with people again...and not with the ON-DUTY cabin crew that I saw resting in those seats on my last AC flight.

amraam
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bmc
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by bmc »

amraam wrote:Bigger question would be how many of those seats are sold at that price and how many are sold at closer to full fare? Seat sales never give a full indication as to how much money a particular flight is bringing in for revenue,

amraam
Thank you. Most sensible post so far.

Try booking those same flights two days before departure. Westjet will hold out for last minute traffic that is willing to pay higher prices. They are not dumping seats on the market. This is a price to get people's attention. I just went on Westjet's website and picked two travel days in May routing YZF-YEG. The south bound fare was $135 and the northbound $115. I stopped there. I don't know if WS charges fuel surcharges, but if they did, who do you think gets that revenue? Where is the advertised $75 fare people are crying about?

What fare should they advertise? What price for a new Honda Civic be advertised? The price of a model with all options including a leather, cruise, heated seats for a high figure, or an ad saying "Starting from $XXXX"

I sense this is less amount commenting on marketing and more about sour grapes against an excellent well run airline.

BTW...I don't work for WS, nor have I ever flown them.
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by FICU »

Actually it's more about the fact that those north of Yellowknife will be the ones who suffer with Westjet's cherry picking this summer as the established northern airlines may be forced to cut service and funding in order to compete.

FYI... Westjet is entering into an already highly over serviced market. I would imagine that with Jazz, Canadian North, First Air, and Westjet all serving Yellowknife this summer, the people of Yellowknife will have the highest ratio of jet service flights per captia in Canada.
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Jastapilot
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by Jastapilot »

FICU wrote:Actually it's more about the fact that those north of Yellowknife will be the ones who suffer with Westjet's cherry picking this summer as the established northern airlines may be forced to cut service and funding in order to compete.

FYI... Westjet is entering into an already highly over serviced market. I would imagine that with Jazz, Canadian North, First Air, and Westjet all serving Yellowknife this summer, the people of Yellowknife will have the highest ratio of jet service flights per captia in Canada.
I think what you meant to say is these inefficient, high cost airlines will have some real competition to deal with come May. The consumer wins, not loses. It's about time that YZF'ers have the ability to fly home(assuming home isn't YEG) without having to book on 2 or more airlines.
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by anonymity »

The question how low will they go, well here it is.
yzf-yeg may 5 returning may 12 on WJ 304.85 taxs/surcharges included
yzf yeg may 5 returning may 12 on greyhound bus 522.69 taxes and surcharges included
so I did a quick comparison of last minute fares,
ywg-yeg april 7 returning april 14 WJ 372.05 all in
same route same days on greyhound 387.45 all in
Now why would anyone in there right mind spend 23 hours on a bus with pax not screened for weapons and pay more for that priviledge. I should also note I did a comparison a while back for curiosity sake and came up with the same results. I compared 4 routes between AC,WJ,GrH and WJ and AC were almost identical while GrH was more expensive on 2 and 50 dollars cheaper on 2.
So there it is, and the funny thing is I probably make less money than the bus driver makes
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FICU
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by FICU »

Jastapilot wrote: I think what you meant to say is these inefficient, high cost airlines will have some real competition to deal with come May. The consumer wins, not loses. It's about time that YZF'ers have the ability to fly home(assuming home isn't YEG) without having to book on 2 or more airlines.
There you go again... you don't understand the operation of the northern airlines. You figure they should be running brand new NG's with TVs to give Yellowknifers the cheapest fares. There really is a pretty good reason you see the -200 up there...

1. Requirement for a combi to haul freight... the -200 is grandfathered with a movable bulkhead and crew fire fighting. The movable bulkhead is a must to allow the most efficient pax/freight loads because of the lack of volume of pax in the north and high demand for freight. The -300 is also available in a combi but it has a sealed fixed bulkhead to allow for automatic fire suppression of the upper deck cargo. Unless an STC can be approved the -200 is the only viable choice unfortunately.

2. Requirement to land on gravel runways... the -200 is the only one with that capability.

Should these airlines buy new planes just for the people of Yellowknife so they can have low Westjet fares?

If Westjet is so concerned with the high fares the people of the north are paying is Westjet willing to haul freight and go into gravel to help save all the northeners? If not it looks like Westjet is just cherry picking the easy seasonal traffic for easy money with no regard of the long term effect to the people that need service Westjet doesn't and never will provide. But you will make all those Yellowknifers very happy... congratulations!

See ya in Whitehorse!
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by Jastapilot »

All good arguments, but pretty weak to say why WJ shouldn't operate YEG-YZF. You're arguing about something completely different. WJ isn't interested in flying freight to the extent First Air does, so don't too excited.
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by Jastapilot »

BTW... WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!! :roll:
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by tailgunner »

Jastapilot, your ignorance is sad.
I am sure that you are NOT a WJ pilot, because the good fellas I know there would not stand for your arrogance. A whuppin' would be coming your way in no time with that attitude.
Have you ever stopped to think why people are concerned about WJ's zeal in flying north? It is because they are legitimately concerned about the survival of their jobs! WJ is a fierce competitor, one that can alter the landscape very quickly. Pilots' who make a living flying for these 'northern' airlines should be concerned about their livelihood, and next months mortgage. If WJ does scoop a significant percentage of the summer silly season, then it MAY force the reduction of crews for First Air, Canadian North, Air North etc. Where are these guys going to go in this market???
There is talk of others's needs to get their cost under control vis - a -vis WJ. That is great in theory but in reality it will mean lost jobs, and lost wages for these 737 drivers. Should we all be applauding that Jastapilot, should we be waving our fingers at them and say "wwwaahhhhh", or should we be concerned about their potential job loss, mortgage loss, and upheaval?
When WJ leaves the market in the fall, what will be left? They, WJ, will move on to other flying while the 'northern' airlines will be forced to endure a winters worth of costs without the summer revenue in their operation...Who wins ?? Maybe you do Jastapilot, but maybe we all lose if their are continued layoffs and downgrades....
And lastly Jastapilot, what goes around eventually comes around....Do you honestly think WJ trajectory will stay the same....Maybe WJ will do ALL the flying in Canada, then you win, or maybe they will have expanded too fast. Maybe the market can not accomodate 121 737's, maybe the load factors continue to slide, maybe they will be forced to alter their business plan and not operate half loaded 737's to YQU...Maybe , maybe , maybe...but rest assured if this comes to pass, honest people, good- hearted people, and respectful people will not post about WJ's pilots hardships and concerns with a " WwwwaaaaaHHHHH". out.
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by wrc »

We will see what the market bears. If the good people of Yellowknife decide to support the fares of those in Norman Wells, Coppermine etc... then we'll (WestJet) be gone at the end of the summer, not to return.

If they choose to go with the best value, then I would guess that some of those 737-200 jobs will be gone, maybe to WestJet and the remaining Northern flying will be forced to increase yield and efficiency. If such is the case, I would expect eventual year round service. As happened with our "Cherry picking" service to YYG & YQB.

Out of interest, how many of the 737-200 pilots at Canadian North & First Air are actually based in the Territories? I would assume the ATR & Hawker guys all live there.
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Last edited by wrc on Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jastapilot
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by Jastapilot »

tailgunner wrote:Jastapilot, your ignorance is sad.
I am sure that you are NOT a WJ pilot, because the good fellas I know there would not stand for your arrogance. A whuppin' would be coming your way in no time with that attitude.
Have you ever stopped to think why people are concerned about WJ's zeal in flying north? It is because they are legitimately concerned about the survival of their jobs! WJ is a fierce competitor, one that can alter the landscape very quickly. Pilots' who make a living flying for these 'northern' airlines should be concerned about their livelihood, and next months mortgage. If WJ does scoop a significant percentage of the summer silly season, then it MAY force the reduction of crews for First Air, Canadian North, Air North etc. Where are these guys going to go in this market???
There is talk of others's needs to get their cost under control vis - a -vis WJ. That is great in theory but in reality it will mean lost jobs, and lost wages for these 737 drivers. Should we all be applauding that Jastapilot, should we be waving our fingers at them and say "wwwaahhhhh", or should we be concerned about their potential job loss, mortgage loss, and upheaval?
When WJ leaves the market in the fall, what will be left? They, WJ, will move on to other flying while the 'northern' airlines will be forced to endure a winters worth of costs without the summer revenue in their operation...Who wins ?? Maybe you do Jastapilot, but maybe we all lose if their are continued layoffs and downgrades....
And lastly Jastapilot, what goes around eventually comes around....Do you honestly think WJ trajectory will stay the same....Maybe WJ will do ALL the flying in Canada, then you win, or maybe they will have expanded too fast. Maybe the market can not accomodate 121 737's, maybe the load factors continue to slide, maybe they will be forced to alter their business plan and not operate half loaded 737's to YQU...Maybe , maybe , maybe...but rest assured if this comes to pass, honest people, good- hearted people, and respectful people will not post about WJ's pilots hardships and concerns with a " WwwwaaaaaHHHHH". out.
Wow, all this over 1 announced leg into the north's stronghold?! Are the tough northerners really that scared over YEG-YZF? Maybe you should be glad WJ didn't announce YEV as well. Scarier yet, YUL-YFB? Here's a wakeup call. None of us are guaranteed a job, no company deserves to survive only because it exists. This is a capitalist society we live in, and I'm sorry to say, change with the times or go the way of the dinosaur. If a leaner, meaner airline comes up and kicks WJ's butt, then so be it.
PS: the WAAAAH was for all the goddamn whiners that have been non-stop since WJ announced this new route, starting with the boss over at Canadian North. Adapt and overcome, it's really simple.
What does First Air and Cdn Nrth have that WJ doesn't? It's easy. They have freighters, they have gravel capabilities, they have the feed network all over the north that I'm sure WJ will never touch. I really doubt yeg-yzf will destroy either airline. Maybe they'll have to truly become a northern airline, but it won't put them under, unless of course, they're really that stupid and weak, which they're not.
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Donald
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by Donald »

The YZF market is going to see a reduction in pax this summer anyway. Recession is everywhere, 2 of 3 diamond mines are having temporary shutdowns, aurora visitors are going to YXY on direct flights now, etc etc. Once the novelty of the new airline wears off, I believe the number of people travelling will decline.

I'm more concerned with the fact that it now costs $149 one way from YHZ-YYC, or $49 YEG-YQQ. The canadian aviation marketplace is f-ed, and it's going to be messy before it gets any better.
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Re: How Low Will You Go?

Post by bmc »

Donald wrote: I'm more concerned with the fact that it now costs $149 one way from YHZ-YYC, or $49 YEG-YQQ. The canadian aviation marketplace is f-ed, and it's going to be messy before it gets any better.
Why do advertised prices worry you? Cheap prices have always been advertised. It has no relation as to the total revenue carried on any flight. It's advertising.
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