What's the problem with pilots?

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mag check
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What's the problem with pilots?

Post by mag check »

Why is it that most posts on here, especially ones that have anything to do with the professional behavior of pilots, or an accident/occurrance that the majority could learn from turn into a big coverup, or whining session about pay?

Becoming a commercial pilot certainly isn't the hardest thing to do, and is much easier work than many jobs, so why the big sense of entitlement?
Starting from day one, with zero hours, any average person could become a commercial pilot in under 6 months, with dedication. There is no apprenticeship time, and no special skills needed, just enough money to take the lessons.

The argument always starts with the fact that aircraft are expensive, so the pilot should get paid lots for being responsible for the equipment, but the average dump truck, or excavator costs more than the average plane. Heck, my buddy just bought a floor grinder that cost more than many planes, and he doesn't complain about his pay.

Were most pilots born with the proverbial "silver spoon", and thus the feeling that they deserve more?

How about threads concerning accidents, or incidents. Why is it always a big coverup, with everyone avoiding the fact that there might be something to learn, that could very well save lives?
Do pilots have such big egos that they feel there is nothing new to learn, and nothing can ever happen to them?

Interested to see how others feel about this, I for one would like to keep flying for many more years (been 20 years so far), so I'm always trying to learn more, and teach when I can.
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by Edelweiss air »

Well part of the pay issue is the fact that not only are the aircraft expensive they are also responsible for human lives. The back hoe operator doesn't really have to worry about screwing up digging a hole and killing people. In regards to the ego thing it seems that aviation attracts people with big egos. And the accident threads are always going to be full of armchair quarterbacks because people love speculating and arguing :rolleyes:
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by cdnpilot77 »

mag check wrote:How about threads concerning accidents, or incidents. Why is it always a big coverup, with everyone avoiding the fact that there might be something to learn, that could very well save lives?
Do pilots have such big egos that they feel there is nothing new to learn, and nothing can ever happen to them?
I find that there is not necessarily a cover up so much as a lack of desire to speculate when you know the people involved. It's easy to be the armchair quarterback for an incident in New York when the pilot is known by name and rank only. But when it's people that you know and trust, I know I certainly wouldn't want to say something by accident that could cause more harm than good to my friends.

I don't see a problem with people refuting speculation but not offering facts until the appropriate time through the appropriate channel. Why should we feel entitled to know the facts before an investigation is complete and then learn based on the facts, not the speculation?
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by Hawkerflyer »

mag check wrote:I for one would like to keep flying for many more years (been 20 years so far), so I'm always trying to learn more, and teach when I can.
I coudn't agree with you more. But of course, the majority of people in here (AvCanada) already know everything there is to know about Aviation! :wink:
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by pika »

The argument always starts with the fact that aircraft are expensive, so the pilot should get paid lots for being responsible for the equipment, but the average dump truck, or excavator costs more than the average plane. Heck, my buddy just bought a floor grinder that cost more than many planes, and he doesn't complain about his pay.
Several weaknesses here but here's a starting point.

Does your buddy need a six month recurrent on his floor grinder? Is he subject to spot inspections by government inspectors? I've worked way more manual labour than I would have preferred but I never saw a dump truck PPC card signed by a TC inspector. Does the excavator operator require a medical? Is he concerned with violations that might stifle his career aspirations?

We've seen the result of people having enough money to complete flying licences with limited ability and it's called Colgan Air.

Call it entitlement or the silver spoon or whatever you want but I fully support any individual or profession where the goal is simply trying to make a better living.

Why is it always a big coverup, with everyone avoiding the fact that there might be something to learn, that could very well save lives?
Can you provide an example of this one?
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by iflyforpie »

I'd say blame it on the military and Pan American Airways.

The military decided that flying was the natural progression of cavalry, itself stemming from the chivalrous knights of yore. Therefore, is was commissioned officers that flew these planes rather than grunts (though there were a few examples of the former as recent as WWII, there are none now..).

Pan American Airways decided that its pilots were going to carry on a marine tradition where the pilot in command is called the captain and he has his first officer to assist him in his duties, plus an engineer to answer engine commands.

The proliferation of aviation movies has certainly fed this image to the general public and even to ourselves. I was on the soccer field with my son yesterday and meeting new parents, each one in awe (real or feigned :smt102 ) of what I do for a living.

But mag check hit the nail on the head. This is a blue-collar industry through and through. I drive a taxi. Westjet pilots drive a bus, Airspray pilots drive fire trucks, CAF pilots drive police interceptors and rescue vehicles, medevac pilots drive ambulances, rotary and STOL pilots drive 4x4 pickup trucks, and Hedley (the lucky bugger) drives F1 cars.

Responsible for lives? Sure, but so is operating nearly any type of machinery. You can hit a gas main or an overhead cable with an excavator, or take dozens of people with you in a bus. The knowledge our profession uses pales in comparison to even a GP looking at a sprained ankle.

But being blue-collar isn't an excuse to be unprofessional (wearing a hawaiian shirt to work is still professional, right?). We still have a duty to our passengers, our families, and the people below us (on the ground) to perform every flight safely and to the best of our ability.

To me this means continuously learning and trying to better yourself. It also means maybe some speculation; because even though some people might frown upon it, it encourages critical thinking and might change the way you conduct your next flight...
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by mag check »

Does your buddy need a six month recurrent on his floor grinder? Is he subject to spot inspections by government inspectors? I've worked way more manual labour than I would have preferred but I never saw a dump truck PPC card signed by a TC inspector. Does the excavator operator require a medical? Is he concerned with violations that might stifle his career aspirations?
Floor grinding, no.
Truck drivers are subject to inspection WAY more often than pilots. It is not uncommon for a trucker to go through inspection multiple times A DAY, and with VERY stiff penalties compared to aviation, and no way to pass the buck to the owner. The buck stops with the driver.
Can you provide an example of this one?
Sure, how about the on going one about Borek, and the previous ones about jazz in North Bay.
I find that there is not necessarily a cover up so much as a lack of desire to speculate when you know the people involved. It's easy to be the armchair quarterback for an incident in New York when the pilot is known by name and rank only. But when it's people that you know and trust, I know I certainly wouldn't want to say something by accident that could cause more harm than good to my friends.

I don't see a problem with people refuting speculation but not offering facts until the appropriate time through the appropriate channel. Why should we feel entitled to know the facts before an investigation is complete and then learn based on the facts, not the speculation?
mag check wrote:How about threads concerning accidents, or incidents. Why is it always a big coverup, with everyone avoiding the fact that there might be something to learn, that could very well save lives?
Do pilots have such big egos that they feel there is nothing new to learn, and nothing can ever happen to them?
I find that there is not necessarily a cover up so much as a lack of desire to speculate when you know the people involved. It's easy to be the armchair quarterback for an incident in New York when the pilot is known by name and rank only. But when it's people that you know and trust, I know I certainly wouldn't want to say something by accident that could cause more harm than good to my friends.

I don't see a problem with people refuting speculation but not offering facts until the appropriate time through the appropriate channel. Why should we feel entitled to know the facts before an investigation is complete and then learn based on the facts, not the speculation?
Agreed. It is harder to discuss if you know the people involved.

The problem with waiting for the facts, and not speculating is that there is a lot of learning that is missed.
I feel it is the speculation that can teach more than the actual facts that come to light months/years later.
When people speculate, they are giving opinions based on their experiances, and this is where there is great opertunity to learn.
Take this for example: A C-180, on skis is seen turning final, and witnesses observe the plane pitch down and spin in. The low time pilot is killed. Now the full report won't come out for at least a year, but there can be a lot of opinions.
Experianced ski guys would speculate that a bungee broke, or that he was slipping and blanked out the tail, or his cargo shifted, making the plane uncontrollable, which are all possible, and would allow others to consider these things the next time they fly.
Then the facts come out, and it turns out that he was just inexperianced, and did the classic stall/spin turn onto final.
All that good useful info would never have come out if there was no speculation.

I say bring it on, it is how we learn.
Well part of the pay issue is the fact that not only are the aircraft expensive they are also responsible for human lives
I don't buy that. Have you seen the price of a school bus? Noticed how much responsibility the driver has with 50 kids in the back? Seen what they get paid?
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by cdnpilot77 »

The problem with waiting for the facts, and not speculating is that there is a lot of learning that is missed.
I feel it is the speculation that can teach more than the actual facts that come to light months/years later.
When people speculate, they are giving opinions based on their experiances, and this is where there is great opertunity to learn
Also agreed...however, there is a difference between speculation on the incident itself and slandering of the pilots involved. This is what I was getting at but was not able to articulate very well previously
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by beast »

iflyforpie, you assert that being a professional pilot is a blue collar job, simply because any field that involves the transportation of people is.....

Commanding a 250 million dollar aircraft with 350 people onboard is, yes, in the same category (transportation) as driving a city of edmonton bus, I suppose...

Being a doctor nowadays is very similar to being a drug dealer, i suppose...

Lawyers just write and read shit, i suppose....

Politicians just say stuff....

TV news anchors just read off teleprompters....

It is possible to devalue everything in this world

If you truly believe your career at westjet isn't worth more than a job driving a bus, please step down from your current position and go apply at Edmonton Transit so that people who understand the difference can have a shot
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by iflyforpie »

beast wrote:iflyforpie, you assert that being a professional pilot is a blue collar job, simply because any field that involves the transportation of people is.....
Pretty much. Note that blue-collar doesn't necessarily have anything to do with pay (ask the owner of a road maintenance company what he makes). It is the education and experience required to get there. Operating pretty much any piece of machinery that isn't directly connected to peoples lives (like drilling holes in someone's cranium) is blue collar.
Commanding a 250 million dollar aircraft with 350 people onboard is, yes, in the same category (transportation) as driving a city of edmonton bus, I suppose...
Category, yes. Payscale and experience, no.
Being a doctor nowadays is very similar to being a drug dealer, i suppose...
You obviously didn't read what I wrote about doctors in my last post, did you?
Lawyers just write and read shit, i suppose....

Politicians just say stuff....

TV news anchors just read off teleprompters....

It is possible to devalue everything in this world
:roll:

If you truly believe your career at westjet isn't worth more than a job driving a bus, please step down from your current position and go apply at Edmonton Transit so that people who understand the difference can have a shot
Again, if you had read my post, you would know that I don't work at Westjet.

Westjet is an example of what is right in this industry. They remunerate well, but not too well. All the big airlines are stuck with paying out big salaries attached to big egos, and when times are tough they go belly up, leaving the field open to nickel and dime regional airlines who don't pay their pilots at all.

And I'm sure most career pilots on here would love the salary, schedule, benefits, and stability their 'blue collar' counterparts enjoy...
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by teacher »

All those "blue collar" jobs that were listed pay better than what pilots make for the most part, that's what a lot of pilots have a problem with.
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by iflyforpie »

teacher wrote:All those "blue collar" jobs that were listed pay better than what pilots make for the most part, that's what a lot of pilots have a problem with.
And that was the point I was trying to make. Everybody gets so mad when I say that pilots are 'blue collar' but if we acted and got paid more like blue collar workers, we would probably be better overall.

I'm willing to bet that most of the aspiring career pilots on here at one time or another had the comfy sheepskin chair and the 1/4 million dollar a year job in sight where you work 10 days each month. So what happens? Everybody is hell bent on getting there so all the ATPL factories (insert name of regional carrier here) can get away with paying McWages and it all trickles down.

Whereas if we were paid what our blue collar counterparts were paid, pilots would have more desire to stick around at smaller operators, less desire to go to bigger operators, and there would be less people entering an overcrowded industry in hopes of making $300K/yr...
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by mattedfred »

iflyforpie wrote:All the big airlines are stuck with paying out big salaries attached to big egos, and when times are tough they go belly up, leaving the field open to nickel and dime regional airlines who don't pay their pilots at all.
i'm curious to know how well vista jet, greyhound, jetsgo, canjet 1.0 and 2.0 paid before they went belly up?

how much is SWA paying and how long have they been around?

and what is the average percentage of total operating costs that pilot WAWCON equates to anyway?

boy do we ever have big egos if we think our big salaries cause airlines to fail

did your anti union chief pilot tell you this tail?
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by albertdesalvo »

Edelweiss air wrote:The back hoe operator doesn't really have to worry about screwing up digging a hole and killing people.
Yeah? Ever seen what happens when a backhoe hits a gas main? How about a 13.5 kilovolt electrical cable? More than a few people have been killed in such scenarios. Just sayin'....
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by ajet32 »

SWA if you mean South West Airlines are the highest paid B737 pilots in North America maybe the world. They pay $ 181-206/hour as a Capt and $54-144 as an F/O. They do require a type rating before hiring so that will cost at least $10000 at the cheap schools, but they are still the highest paying B737 operator out there with over 500 B737 aircraft.

Classifying a pilot as a blue collar worker might work here in Canada but those SWA pilots all require a degree to get that high paying B737 job. Not saying it is important just required.
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by mag check »

And as predicted, the discussion breaks down to pay............

Please re-read post number 1, titled "What's the problem with pilots?"
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by Doc »

Being a pilot puts you no higher on the "food chain" than being a city bus driver. Some of us have an ego, that dictates this not to be true. But, it is.
Some our problems are unique to the industry. We are less kind to folks learning our business than say, plumbers or electricians. Our "apprenticeship" often involves a range of unprofessional treatment, ranging from being taken advantage of, to down and out abuse. Are we "blue collar" workers? Who really cares. Are we "professional"? Some are. Some have some work to do in that direction. The comparisons made to backhoe operators etc., are nonproductive. It shouldn't be all about the money. It should be pride in a job well done.
Aviation has taken some turns of late, that I find just embarrassing. We could use a sense of self worth in the low time guys, some fair treatment from a few of the companies.
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by PAFG »

This thread is a joke...

A bus driver can be replaced by pretty much every person in the world. A pilot has a special skill set.
Did a bus driver pay a shit load for their licence? If it is so easy to be a pilot, and life is so good, why doesnt everyone do it? Im pretty sure being away from home FOUR times as much as the average 9-5 job takes a toll on the home life.
Let me clock in when I get to work for a four day pairing, and clock out when I am finished...pay me $10 an hour and you almost have my pay!!!

Pilots dont go through an apprenticeship? Wow buddy I would love to see how you got your start in aviation...Im sure the guy next to you didnt teach you anything? Did you live up north...not even working IN YOUR FIELD OF CHOICE just to get a flying job down the line hopefully?!?!?!

Yes I agree most pilots have a huge ego...hence my name...but I dont like to see guys get thrown under the bus if they make a mistake after a 14 hour day, wait for the damn facts...if you want to learn something read a theory book. Dont you think aviation is too reactive not proactive to begin with? It shouldnt take an accident to help you "learn."

No special skills needed? Wow you must the the most natural pilot EVER! Sounds like you have quite the ego.

I dont know what kind of plane you are talking about, but a $250,000,000.00 dump truck would be quite the pimped out ride...wow...just WOW.

Guys like you are the reason that our profession is in deep shit. Keep telling people that it is so fun, and so easy. Do you honestly think people want the person flying them around the skies (their life in their hands) to be making below poverty and not even being able to afford a crash pad to commute to? So they fly a long day on 2 hours sleep. Give your head a shake.

PS. Since you think pilots dont deserve the pay, im assuming you dont care what you get paid to fly...please stop prostituting yourself out, you are worth more than you think.
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by pika »

AMEN!
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by lionheart27 »

Why is it that most posts on here, especially ones that have anything to do with the professional behavior of pilots, or an accident/occurrance that the majority could learn from turn into a big coverup, or whining session about pay?
Why so bitter. Is it just a few bad eggs or did this industry throw you off the deep end?
Becoming a commercial pilot certainly isn't the hardest thing to do, and is much easier work than many jobs, so why the big sense of entitlement?
Starting from day one, with zero hours, any average person could become a commercial pilot in under 6 months, with dedication. There is no apprenticeship time, and no special skills needed, just enough money to take the lessons.
This statement is really false. No Special Skills? Meteorology, Theory of Flight, Hand eye Co-Ordination, Perception Emergency Action, Communication...Shall I go on.
No Apprenticeship Time? I'm sure everyone on this forum just jumped into a 747 as Captain!
On the contrary, its actually an ongoing learning experience. New Equipment/ Regulations, etc.
Enough money to take lessons? I'm sure all of us had 50-60k laying around in our mattress that we didn't need. The maybe 2k to get a back hoe or bus license really stacks up in terms of training
They just don't put you behind what could be several million dollars worth of equipment just like that. That's responsibility!
The argument always starts with the fact that aircraft are expensive, so the pilot should get paid lots for being responsible for the equipment, but the average dump truck, or excavator costs more than the average plane. Heck, my buddy just bought a floor grinder that cost more than many planes, and he doesn't complain about his pay.
Where do you buy your gold plated, diamond encrusted construction equipment. Your trying to compare apples and oranges here. Of course there is skill to operate a back hoe/excavator but the training is more intense where emergencies happen you can't just shut off the engines and pull over to the side of the road.
Were most pilots born with the proverbial "silver spoon", and thus the feeling that they deserve more?
Actually no most pilots are small town folk that have a love for flying. If your talking actors or millionaires than maybe yes.
How about threads concerning accidents, or incidents. Why is it always a big coverup, with everyone avoiding the fact that there might be something to learn, that could very well save lives?
Do pilots have such big egos that they feel there is nothing new to learn, and nothing can ever happen to them?
TC, TSB and companies are always improving the way we fly. All pilot I know are concerned with incidents and accidents and strive to learn from them. Do you read threads on this forum?
Which pilots are you referring to? Many there are a few bad eggs, bu you should refer to it as that instead of making it general.
Interested to see how others feel about this, I for one would like to keep flying for many more years (been 20 years so far), so I'm always trying to learn more, and teach when I can.

I hope you will continue flying. After 20 yrs in the biz or industry you'd have a more positive outlook on your fellow pilot and continue with a detailed discussion of concern rather than a general hatred for your fellow worker. We can't all be bad.
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by george sugar »

Every time you drive your car on the highway you have the dozens of lives in the cars around you in your hands, and you don't get paid for driving to the mall. Let’s be honest, you don’t care about those lives so much anyway; you care about your life and the lives of the people you know. You can’t care, as such, since you have no personal knowledge of them. You have a responsibility in the abstract for the well-being of those on your aircraft, a professional responsibility if you will, but if it was that serious you wouldn’t divert your attention for a second in your car or in the aircraft, or speed or break regulations or contravene SOP. To make that responsibility an argument for personal care means that you should be in Haiti or Africa doing humanitarian work, since the logic is identical. And your passengers feel the same; they don’t care about what you have to go through to give them what they want, they just want to get to their destination as cheaply as possible. You need to think your rhetoric through to the inevitable conclusion before you roll it out to bolster a materialistic argument. I digress.

Two maxims come to mind: you get what you pay for, and the worth of anything is determined by what someone is willing to pay for it.

If the entry requirements into this industry are such that anyone can do it, then the pay will be what anyone can get. If the entry requirements are made more difficult, then the pay will rise, but one must be prepared for the consequence that not everyone that wants to do it, can. If this is to be a so-called “profession”, it must take more than a passing interest, a few tens of thousands of dollars, and a couple of months. And forming a college and insisting you are a professional will not achieve this.

The pilots in the present system get what they pay for, which is basically a lottery ticket. Every once in a while someone wins and gets a high-paying and secure job, but the majority slog through a career of uncertainty and variable conditions. The companies also get what they pay for, but what they often choose to see is the worst of it, with little admission to the fact that it is often self-induced.

Notwithstanding these conditions, it does not matter what a pilot thinks he’s worth, nor does it matter what a company thinks it should charge, revenues are determined by what the customer is willing to pay. If either the pilot or the company prices itself above the market, they will fail. All the stomping of feet and spouting of professional principles will not change this brutal fact.

The only way to raise the price in a glutted marketplace is to either convince the customer of a value-added aspect to your particular service, or to restrict the supply to a level below the demand. The former requires an improvement to the certification of pilots and companies (which will reduce the number of those that qualify), and the latter requires a reduction in the product available (which will reduce the number of jobs). This brings to mind another maxim; be careful what you wish for.

I apologize, mag check, but any problem with pilots is in itself what is perceived as fair pay, so any such discussion must inevitably come back to it. Pay is frequently seen as an indication of worth, and those that use pay as a measure of their value cannot see past the number. Doc has it right; anything worth doing is worth doing well, and the satisfaction must first come from that. If you love what you do, the pay will always be enough. If what you do is what you are, then the fact that someone else gets more will invariably lead to the position that it is better to ruin what you have in pursuit of the unattainable ideal, and this position is the root of any unrest that pilots currently enjoy. Perfect is the enemy of good, and Freud could make a career out of the psyche of aircrew.
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by '79K20driver »

That's certainly spoken like a manager george. Should guys in your company be on the road for 300 hours a month for what they are making? I don't know, but I doubt it. Should they be told that they should suck it up and be happy because that's what the market dictates these days? I don't know. I do know that we all have an obligation to sustain and improve our working conditions, and yes that includes compensation, so you can't really blame guys for their, as you say, "spouting of professional principles". Besides, I'm sure most employers, and most clients, would be quite happy to pay less and less no matter what the market happened to be dictating. Employers use words like "family" and "one-team". These are corporate buzz words to get more out of the employees for less irregardless of the current state of the market. Of course there is nothing wrong with that, as companies are in the money making business and not the job creation business. We employees, however, have a responsibility to each other not to simply accept what is being handed out, but to question and seek answers from our employers.

george sugar wrote:If you love what you do, the pay will always be enough
fact or fantasy?
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by armchair »

Trolling... enough already
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by mag check »

Sorry guys, I'm going to have to dissagree about the whole pay thing.
With the exception of a select few at the top of the airlines, pilots have gererally made an "average" wage, this has not changed for the last 100 years.
Surely any person interested in being a pilot, with all their "special skills" would have researched the industy, and known that the odds of them making a large wage were slim.
This statement is really false. No Special Skills? Meteorology, Theory of Flight, Hand eye Co-Ordination, Perception Emergency Action, Communication...Shall I go on.
No Apprenticeship Time? I'm sure everyone on this forum just jumped into a 747 as Captain!
On the contrary, its actually an ongoing learning experience. New Equipment/ Regulations, etc.
Enough money to take lessons? I'm sure all of us had 50-60k laying around in our mattress that we didn't need
There is NO dictated appreticeship time. You can pass your commercial ride, and be getting paid to fly 10 minutes later.
I have seen many pilots with very poor "skills". 5000 hour pilots with a slim grasp of the theory of flight, poor communication, and based on the steady numbers of crashes because of poor weather planning, they have a poor concept of meterology, and obviously poor emergecy action "skills".

I didn't say everyone had the money laying around, I said that IF you had the money, you could complete the requirements in a short time.
I dont know what kind of plane you are talking about, but a $250,000,000.00 dump truck would be quite the pimped out ride...wow...just WOW.
Again, I said average. I would estimate the average commercial aircraft to be valued between 100,000 to 300,000, but yes, a 250 million dollar dump truck would be extememely pimped out :wink:
Pilots dont go through an apprenticeship? Wow buddy I would love to see how you got your start in aviation...Im sure the guy next to you didnt teach you anything? Did you live up north...not even working IN YOUR FIELD OF CHOICE just to get a flying job down the line hopefully?!?!?!
I said apprenticeship, not to be confused with "paying dues".
Everything I know, I learned from those around me, and I continue to learn every day.
No special skills needed? Wow you must the the most natural pilot EVER! Sounds like you have quite the ego.
Not at all. I suspect that I am an average pilot. I'm sure I could improve in many ways.
There could well be a "natural" component to flying, hard to say. I'm sure that other things that I do,(dirt biking, mountain biking etc.) help somewhat with reflexes, and depth perception, but it would be tough to quantify.
Guys like you are the reason that our profession is in deep shit. Keep telling people that it is so fun, and so easy
I said NOTHING of the sort. I asked why there was a sense of entitlement, and why there is always a "duck and cover" when accidents/incidents happen.

Let me break it down for you; Pilots complain about wages, saying that they deserve to be treated as professionals, but the accident stats show that the exact same crashes keep happening, over and over, for the last 100 years, showing the same cause, poor decision making, and pilot error.
So why do pilots deserve more, when they fail to learn from the past?
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mag check
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Re: What's the problem with pilots?

Post by mag check »

armchair wrote:Trolling... enough already
Not at all. There is some good discussion here.
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