Saskatoon Airline ordered to reinstate dismissed pilot

[Vindicator]

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/business/ ... story.html

Saskatoon airline ordered to reinstate dismissed pilot


The StarPhoenix June 30, 2010



A West Wind Aviation pilot who lost his job almost two years ago has his wings back after a federal adjudicator ruled he was unjustly fired.

West Wind must also reinstate, for a second time, two pilots fired by West Wind. That order came in a ruling from the Canadian Industrial Relations Board last week.

Denton Miller was fired by Saskatoon-based West Wind Aviation in September 2008 for discussions about unionizing employees, according to a media release from the Communication, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada (CEP).

A federal adjudicator ruled that West Wind must reinstate Miller, an ATR first officer and training pilot, with full wages and benefits. The two sides are required to work out back pay for Miller dating to September 2008.

"There is simply no evidence of culpable conduct warranting discipline," wrote the adjudicator, Anne Wallace.

West Wind employees have, since Miller was fired, unionized under CEP and are currently negotiating the first collective agreement with their employer.

Last week, the Canada Industrial Relations Board ruled that West Wind was wrong to fire two pilots, Tyler Backman and Darcy Rousell, for union activity, according to the union.

"It was a decision tainted by anti-union sentiment," said board vice-chair Richard Hornung.

This is the second time Backman and Rousell were fired, then reinstated, by West Wind. With a third pilot, they won back their jobs in 2009 after they were fired the previous year on the same day they held the first union meeting.

The Canada Industrial Relations Board ordered West Wind, winner of several provincial and national business awards, to reinstate the pilots.

West Wind is currently seeking a review of another employment dispute, in which pilot Mark Urlacher was given back his job by a federal adjudicator following his dismissal when West Wind discovered WestJet was considering Urlacher for a job.
© Copyright (c) The StarPhoenix

Read more: http://www.thestarphoenix.com/business/ ... z0sLMLOnkT

[throttlejockey]

[Widow]

Some history in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=65904

And I'd like to say, I greatly admire the pilots involved for having the courage not to give up the fight. IMHO they've paved the way for others to be able to work more safely!

[throttlejockey]

Maybe I have a short attention span, but what are these unsafe work conditions you speak of Widow?

[Tim]

Maybe I have a short attention span, but what are these unsafe work conditions you speak of Widow?

if they fire you for TALKING about a union, what else will they fire you for?

[Carrier]

This has nothing to do with safety. That was an unfair and inaccurate inference. Hopefully it was an error by the poster. West Wind Aviation is one of the safest and best managed companies out there.

This issue has everything to do with who runs the company and with a group of employees combining together to extract more than their fair market value from the company. If they are not satisfied with their remuneration then they should peddle their talents elsewhere for more. If they cannot get more elsewhere then they are being paid the fair market value for their services and should be grateful.
This is a typical Canadian (and British) attitude that is profiled in this book:
Plunder: the looting of Canada by the welfare state of mind
Donald H. Bunker 1996 ISBN 0921209142
Bramble Ridge, Cambridge, Ontario

There is no more to admire in the actions of certain pilots at WWA than there is in the greed and sense of entitlement exhibited by investment bankers, bureaucrats and politicians. They should move on and make way for the numerous others who would be glad to work for one of the very few decent companies in this generally unscrupulous industry.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Well run small and medium size companies do not have unions or even union organzing drives. Organizing a union is a long and painfull process and will generally only happen if you piss off the employees so badly they see no other way to get a resonable deal from management. Money is almost never the sole motivation for unionizing, is usually brought on by gross abuse of the employees by management with cronynism , nepotism, unfair work practices etc etc, becoming so pervaisive the employee group are driven to action.

A small/medium size business with a union is such a red flag for management incompetance that many venture capaital groups have a policy of not lending to such companies.

[SaskStyle]

This has nothing to do with safety. That was an unfair and inaccurate inference. Hopefully it was an error by the poster. West Wind Aviation is one of the safest and best managed companies out there.

This issue has everything to do with who runs the company and with a group of employees combining together to extract more than their fair market value from the company. If they are not satisfied with their remuneration then they should peddle their talents elsewhere for more. If they cannot get more elsewhere then they are being paid the fair market value for their services and should be grateful.
This is a typical Canadian (and British) attitude that is profiled in this book:
Plunder: the looting of Canada by the welfare state of mind
Donald H. Bunker 1996 ISBN 0921209142
Bramble Ridge, Cambridge, Ontario

There is no more to admire in the actions of certain pilots at WWA than there is in the greed and sense of entitlement exhibited by investment bankers, bureaucrats and politicians. They should move on and make way for the numerous others who would be glad to work for one of the very few decent companies in this generally unscrupulous industry.

Just because you inlude an ISBN number doesn't make your opinion any more valid.

From my redneck hardworking uneducated gunslinging beer drinking tequila shooting closeminded view all I see is a pretty polarized viewpoint. But I think I'll take the time to look find your book so I can wipe my ass with its propoganda pages. (kidding of course. I mean no disrespect to Mr. Bunker's work, just Carrier's pompous attempt to edumacate us welfare seeking pilot peons.)

Your opinion on this topic seems to be influenced by your perspective on unions. Fair enough. That's what makes Canada great is everyone gets their turn on the podium to voice their thoughts.

But you take it too far.

Your inference that "certain pilots" are "greedy" with a "sense of entitlement" is, quite simply, wrong.

Your view that WestWind is a "decent company in a generally unscupulous industry" is, quite simply, right.

Your view that pilots should know "their market value" combined with your view that this situation is an example of overcompensated employees crippling a company with welfare mindset is boggling.

In summary, a company deemed "decent" by comparing it to its peers, who you acknowledge are by and large unscrupulous leaves a lot of room for the definition of decency. A comparison to illustrate is like comparing a thief in a room of murderers. He's not that bad. It's not the same I know, but my point is that assuming that there was no room to improvement at WestWind is naieve.

And assuming that the 50% plus pilots that voted for the union were concerned solely with wage compensation is again, naieve.

But I'm sure your book convinces you otherwise.

[CloudCover]

Well Said Mr. Style.

I have no direct knowledge on either side of this story, but your view seem well grounded and fairly compiled.

No matter how it happened, the current state of affairs dictates a formal relationship between management and employees. This relationship hopefully will allow a stable environment for company expansion.

This remains to be seen.

[throttlejockey]

And assuming that the 50% plus pilots that voted for the union were concerned solely with wage compensation is again, naieve.

But I'm sure your book convinces you otherwise.

And the fact that 70+% of WWA pilots at this point have petitioned to decertify the union after over a year without a collective bargaining agreement is also irrelevant I suppose. I wonder what happened to cause such a strong shift of opinion within a year? I really do think the whole industry should be watching this one. Inviting cockroaches to destroy your home is easy, exterminating them is nearly impossible.

[SaskStyle]

And assuming that the 50% plus pilots that voted for the union were concerned solely with wage compensation is again, naieve.

But I'm sure your book convinces you otherwise.

And the fact that 70+% of WWA pilots at this point have petitioned to decertify the union after over a year without a collective bargaining agreement is also irrelevant I suppose. I wonder what happened to cause such a strong shift of opinion within a year? I really do think the whole industry should be watching this one. Inviting cockroaches to destroy your home is easy, exterminating them is nearly impossible.

Definately not "irrelevant." I'm not sure why you would assume that. All debate is relevant given that it's done in a fair manner. And all that matters in this situation is what the pilots at WestWind want.

I stand to be corrected, but I have a hard time believing your statement of "fact." Watching this thread with interest and the time it took for the pilots to make their decision to sign their cards, I trust that they thought long and hard and are intelligent enough to appreciate the future ramifications. It wasn't like a decision to buy a couch that you could return after a year. So I have a hard time believing that "fact."

I can appreciate that emotions are running high these days at WW. I can also appreciate that you pilots there in the trenches probably don't appreciate us outsiders looking in on this forum freely offering our often strong opinions when we have nothing directly to gain or lose.

However, saying that, you can be reassured that "the whole industry is watching this one."

And saying that, you as a pilot group have an unique opportunity to demonstrate that as professionals we as pilots are, in fact, professional.

Let us on the sidelines take care of the mudslinging and name calling. Bringing the term "cockroach" into the debate against your fellow pilots who have the same goals (improving working conditions, safety, pay, long term stability, sustainable growth, etc) but a different perspective on how to attain them is counterproductive.

[swordfish]

Educate me.

First you have more than half of the crew voting to form a union. Now you have 70% of the crew voting to decertify it.

errr, helloe...?? I may be a pilot, but there's definitely something I'm missing here.

[flyboy]

Educate me.

First you have more than half of the crew voting to form a union. Now you have 70% of the crew voting to decertify it.

errr, helloe...?? I may be a pilot, but there's definitely something I'm missing here.

The problem with a lot of the youth today, as has already been said, they feel entitled, don't want to have to work, and expect to get paid more for it. So they vote to bring in a Union....the problem is, if it is a good company already that treats the employees well, they gain virtually nothing by having a union, and have to pay dues on top of that. Next the employer stops puttin out little perks and bonuses, because the union is already making their lives more difficult. Then a year later, a lot the people realize they had it better off before the union, but they are hard to get rid of.

I watched this exact senario unfold at two different small manufacturing plants locally in the last couple of years...and the unions were always spearheaded by young folk, not the workers that had been there for 10, 20 or 30 years, yet they are the one who lose out....plus creating a huge rift internally between workers and between workers and management. It's been a lose, lose situation for those companies, and it's sad.

All that being said, Unions did have a use at one time, and probably still do some where and I will leave it at that.

As for Westwind, I know very little about them, but never heard bad about them.

[swordfish]

Thanks for the insight.

[Shadowfax]

Ah the ubiquitous Union debate......

This side quotes numers in their favour, the other side does the same.....

It's soo funny how so many pilots are eager to eat their own - Unions are evil and outdated - yet they still grab a foothold in a modern socitey.

Until such time as you all figure it out you are all doomed to servitude. It's so funny when a company like WestWind gets it's ass handed to it by the CIRB then all the coackroaches come out of the woodwork to defend immplorable action. Not really funny at all........

[The Old Fogducker]

Roughly 35 years ago, I met an excellent Civil Aviation Inspector from the Edmonton Office ... the late Jimmy Dyer. I learned a lot from that man, and he was a great mentor and motivator. He was the first DOT guy that wasn't intimidating, short-tempered, and drank beer just like a normal human ... tee hee. That was in stark contrast to his sometime travelling partner initials NR.... who was better suited to an SS Officer kicking in doors in Holland looking for members of The Dutch Resistance.

Even back then Jimmy had a saying which applies today just as well, because it is truly timeless.

"Canadian aviation .... where its National Screw Your Buddy Week all year long!"


The Old Fogducker

[W5]

Ah yes, Jimmy told me the same thing in 1976. What has changed?

Oh yes, you had to bring up NR too, eh? Brings back bad memories.

[The Old Fogducker]

Yes .... NR was a really poor commentary on the quality of Transport Canada Management of the day .... he should never have been allowed out of the office to interact with the public. I tried to build some kind of personal relationship with him, but found it to be impossible.

There must have been some job in TC where he could have made a positive contribution ... like doing some kind of study on the number of staples vs paper clips used on a daily basis.

For those recruited by TC who came along after dealing with NR, he served as a super-bright, carbon-arc powered beacon of what not to be as a Civil Aviation Inspector when dealing with the public.

He was the exact opposite of the late Jim Dyer, who was highly knowledgable, inspiring everyone to do their best to learn, and achieved compliance because it was neat to do so and interesting to find solutions. He was also a master at making you feel like a pro ... when he would say ... "You're a pilot, just like I am ... and I'd like to hear your opinion on ...." you would feel great thinking "this man says I'm just like him? Holy crap!"

The Old Fogducker

[Rudy]

I tried to build some kind of personal relationship with him, but found it to be impossible.

There are plenty of fish in the sea.

[ifr]

[quote="flyboy"

The problem with a lot of the youth today, as has already been said, they feel entitled, don't want to have to work, and expect to get paid more for it. So they vote to bring in a Union....the problem is, if it is a good company already that treats the employees well, they gain virtually nothing by having a union, and have to pay dues on top of that.

I watched this exact senario unfold at two different small manufacturing plants locally in the last couple of years...and the unions were always spearheaded by young folk, not the workers that had been there for 10, 20 or 30 years, yet they are the one who lose out....plus creating a huge rift internally between workers and between workers and management. It's been a lose, lose situation for those companies, and it's sad. (/quote)

As for Westwind, I know very little about them, but never heard bad about them.

Reading this article, it actually seems to be the opposite of what you mention. It actually appears to be the workers that had been there the longest, and as you yourself said with maybe 'the most to lose', that saw the issues worth standing up for. As in many aviation companies, it's the 'youth' who don't have the experience, think it won't happen to them or are too scared to do anything, who will actually find out too late that it can happen to them. This doesn't seem to be a case of 'youth entitlement' but perhaps a case of trying to improve the industry for everyone - workers (old and young), passengers, and yes, even employers.

I would choose to believe that these multiple decisions in multiple cases by multiple well-respected, educated arbitrators and panels can't all be wrong.

And, as for Westwind and knowing very little about them, but never heard bad about them - I guess now you can't say that anymore.

[flyboy]

IFR, in the examples I know of, all the long term employees were happy and did not want the Union. It was the new employees, less than 5 years, that managed to bring it in. They were hoping for better pay and so on. What these kids did not understand was that they were already paid above industry standard, they already had better perks and encentives, better bonus structures and so on. The union did not gain the employees anything, and in fact they lost, because a lot of the extra's got sidelined.

This was just a response to the other guys' query, because in this particular case now the majority want the union gone, but it's a lot harder to get rid of than to bring in.

As for Westwind...I still know dick all about the situation. What I find interesting is that someone would actually want to go back to work there after being fired. I can understand going to the labour board and all that, but to actually go back to work there is interesting. Can't be all that bad a place to work then.

As for unions....everybody has their own opinions.....I don't want to get into a debate, as there are many pros and cons.....I just want to fly. (and I'd personally rather do it at a company with no union )

[Roper]

IFR, in the examples I know of, all the long term employees were happy and did not want the Union. It was the new employees, less than 5 years, that managed to bring it in. They were hoping for better pay and so on. What these kids did not understand was that they were already paid above industry standard, they already had better perks and encentives, better bonus structures and so on. The union did not gain the employees anything, and in fact they lost, because a lot of the extra's got sidelined.

This was just a response to the other guys' query, because in this particular case now the majority want the union gone, but it's a lot harder to get rid of than to bring in.

As for Westwind...I still know dick all about the situation. What I find interesting is that someone would actually want to go back to work there after being fired. I can understand going to the labour board and all that, but to actually go back to work there is interesting. Can't be all that bad a place to work then.

Just wondering, if you 'still know dick all about the situation', how you know that all the long term employees were happy, that it was the new employees that brought it in (and why), and that the majority want the union gone, that they had better perks, etc.? I wouldn't think that those seven successful lawsuits would indicate that all the long term employees (who were obviously promoted through proficiency, etc. because a union wasn't in place at the time) were happy.

Perhaps your 'source(s)' are looking at it from their own personal biased perspective and how it all affects 'them' - too bad for anyone else whether they were wronged or not. As for going back to work there, perhaps these employees are more professional than you think.

[flyboy]

Roper,

Sorry for the confusion, I was talking about the manufacturing companies that had this situation, not WW. Someone earlier mentioned it, I was giving an example of a different company in a different industry that had some similarities.
I am not referring to the WW situation. Like I said earlier I know dick all, and don't want to say bad about them or their employees.