Contract Negotiations, LOL

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog

rigpiggy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2949
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:17 pm
Location: west to east and west again

Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by rigpiggy »

---------- ADS -----------
 
mattedfred
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:36 am

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by mattedfred »

:lol:

bang on!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Localizer
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1452
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:18 pm
Location: CYYZ

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by Localizer »

You don't know whether to laugh or cry?? ..

:lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
yyz monkey
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:36 am
Location: CNC3

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by yyz monkey »

Image

Stock up.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The Theory of Flight - Because even after 100 years, we're still not sure it works!
User avatar
KAG
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:24 pm

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by KAG »

OMFG that was awsome. :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
 
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
teacher
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2450
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by teacher »

:lol: :smt075
---------- ADS -----------
 
https://eresonatemedia.com/
https://bambaits.ca/
https://youtube.com/channel/UCWit8N8YCJSvSaiSw5EWWeQ
pilotidentity
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:00 am

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by pilotidentity »

Well done.
---------- ADS -----------
 
JayDee
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:49 am

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by JayDee »

That is so right on the money. Congratulations to whom ever made it.

It should be sent to every pilot at ACPA to show them how pathetic they have become.
---------- ADS -----------
 
accumulous
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:05 pm

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by accumulous »

It has been said many, many times but clearly what has always been needed is an acceptance of the need to relinquish control to professional negotiators and send them in to get the job done. The pilots should remain at arms length. Just sit behind the yoke and fly the planes and pretty much nothing else because the qualifications to bargain are just not there. This relentless fear of losing control of the situation is only compounding the problem, and make no mistake, it will get much worse unless the modus operandi changes completely.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Mig29
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:47 pm

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by Mig29 »

Classic....wow so true!! :D
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Takeoff OK
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:21 am

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by Takeoff OK »

accumulous wrote:It has been said many, many times but clearly what has always been needed is an acceptance of the need to relinquish control to professional negotiators and send them in to get the job done. The pilots should remain at arms length. Just sit behind the yoke and fly the planes and pretty much nothing else because the qualifications to bargain are just not there. This relentless fear of losing control of the situation is only compounding the problem, and make no mistake, it will get much worse unless the modus operandi changes completely.
Fair enough, but do these professional negotiators actually understand what is important to the entire pilot group? I agree with you wholeheartedly that you should bring the most powerful weapons you can to the fight, but just make sure they truly understand your priorities before you put them in the ring.
---------- ADS -----------
 
accumulous
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:05 pm

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by accumulous »

Fair enough, but do these professional negotiators actually understand what is important to the entire pilot group? I agree with you wholeheartedly that you should bring the most powerful weapons you can to the fight, but just make sure they truly understand your priorities before you put them in the ring.
IMHO sending pilots into that ring is like taking the proverbial knife to a gunfight or the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where Harrison Ford (The Company) watches the Ninja type guy flail away for a while and then just shoots him. I think pilots have a grossly overinflated sense of their abilities in negotiating and it shows. No offense intended, as they do get in there and give it a real try, but at the end of the day, management says 'Boo' and just flushes the birds.

When the 'deal' gets sent back to the population for the big vote, of course it always passes.

It passes for the same reason that when you put an ad out for 50 pilots you will always get 5000 applications for jobs that pay less than half of what a city bus driver pays even in a recession. It's the big shiny brass ring. The big AC. The pilot negotiators will never really have any fear of the membership voting down what they bring back to the fold.

So it doesn't seem to matter what any of the rank and file wants them to produce in the big room. When the big spotlight gets turned in their face it always seems to produce the big concessions. It's not their fault. They're just not endorsed for that. It's not just this outfit - as you notice it's a lot of the industry. At the end of the day after all the high hopes and fluffing about and parading around is done with, you've got JAZZ walking off with the airline right under your nose.

You don't go rifling through your list to find some inexperienced volunteers to go sit on a committee in front of the kind of business expertise and savvy that can reduce you to rubble in a day. You go out and buy the best damn professional negotiators you can find and you send them in there, period. And don't follow them into the room yourself. Go fly the plane and let them report back to you.

The amazing thing is that with the kind of union dues there are floating around, the boys can afford the pros any day of the week, in spades. But you just can't pry the pilots fingers off the stick. IMHO it just ain't gonna happen. Never has. Never will. They'll use some 'experts' as confidants but that's as far as it goes.

Just one opinion.

P.S.

If you just can't find the rocks to get a real pro negotiating team in there, send in the Flight Attendants. Look how they did after CCAA. How long did it take them to snap back to normal after concessions in comparison to the pilots??? Send in the women. Try to pry a purse out of a woman's hands. She'll whack you up both sides of the face with it, pull your shorts up over the top of your head, and launch you into the nearest dumpster. Try it with a pilot and he'll just say thanks, won't happen again sir, just glad to be here sir, 'scuse me sir.
---------- ADS -----------
 
teacher
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2450
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by teacher »

accumulous wrote:you've got JAZZ walking off with the airline right under your nose.
Seriously? Way to keep your eye on the prize :roll:
---------- ADS -----------
 
https://eresonatemedia.com/
https://bambaits.ca/
https://youtube.com/channel/UCWit8N8YCJSvSaiSw5EWWeQ
accumulous
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:05 pm

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by accumulous »

Seriously? Way to keep your eye on the prize :roll:
Meaning more to do with the birth and growth of regional carriers versus their parents worldwide. Not an overnight process - stretch it over the last 20 years. A lose-lose situation for everybody involved.

In fact, the race to the bottom has taken so long, there have been two or three decades to pull the damn thing out of the spin but even that wasn't enough time when you can't get the horses all going in the same direction, because once again, pilots can't seem to negotiate.

Regionals not part of the Mainline, Mainline losing seats to the Regionals. Nobody wins, everybody loses. AC is the conductor. Mainline and Regional are the orchestra. They're throwing tubas and drums and horns at each other all over the pit. No music, just a big old noise. Should always have been 1 list but again the type A personalities was all it took to make sure everybody on both sides gets divided and conquered. Taking my ball and going home syndrome with whatever I can cram into the bag, very little foresight, which has all become hindsight and here we are in a great big tug of war over a snake pit. Nice. Oh, and the lawsuits will do very well to ensure it all stays the same course.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Mig29
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:47 pm

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by Mig29 »

hey don't blame AC on this one... Blame the folks down south (American Mainlines) for starting up this entire low cost/regional race. WJ was the pioneer in Canada and AC was forced to take the same steps.

Should I remind you guys of this documentary? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... heap/view/

Anyways, I agree, we are not the 'smartest' negotiators when it comes down to contract improvements.
---------- ADS -----------
 
S-Critical Haircut
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:46 pm

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by S-Critical Haircut »

The first deal was not ratified:

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7321401
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Dim
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:43 pm

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by Dim »

Haw Haw
---------- ADS -----------
 
teacher
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2450
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:25 pm

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by teacher »

Those things keep getting better and better!!! :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
https://eresonatemedia.com/
https://bambaits.ca/
https://youtube.com/channel/UCWit8N8YCJSvSaiSw5EWWeQ
Brint
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: CYYC

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by Brint »

That is hilarious :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
aerodude
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 8:16 am

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by aerodude »

I wonder if anyone has sent these links to the head of ACPA.
---------- ADS -----------
 
prop2jet
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 588
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:50 am

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by prop2jet »

hey don't blame AC on this one... Blame the folks down south (American Mainlines) for starting up this entire low cost/regional race. WJ was the pioneer in Canada and AC was forced to take the same steps.
The race to the bottom started with the introduction of de-regulation into the marketplace. Legacy carriers forced to change in the face of competition against new, lower cost (overhead) operators domestically and gradually with globalization internationally. De-regulation is here to stay, regrettably the compensation that was previously enjoyed by the many employees has been gutted and a percentage of that transferred by way of bonuses to those responsible, i.e. executive management.

We can sit here and blame the "regionals" and demand that all flying be brought back to the "parent" airlines, but that will not happen either. The legacy carriers are going to continually be looking for ways to be leaner and it will not matter how lean we end up, when a new entrant shows up, their costs are lower and force the established carriers to cut.

Obviously labour groups are going to have to be creative in how to extract improved pay and working conditions and collectively the airlines, the employees and ultimately the consumers are going to have to exercise pressure on the government to ease up on the taxation and airport rents.
---------- ADS -----------
 
CanadianEh
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:00 pm
Location: YYZ

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by CanadianEh »

I love how the "low cost carriers" (notably Southwest and Westjet) manage to pay their pilots so well and still make a profit. They're doing something right. Ryanair took it too far though...
---------- ADS -----------
 
rudder
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4127
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by rudder »

CanadianEh wrote:I love how the "low cost carriers" (notably Southwest and Westjet) manage to pay their pilots so well and still make a profit. They're doing something right. Ryanair took it too far though...
2 things - take a look at the 'all in' cost of the pilots including pension and benefits. And also take a look at efficiency as measured by stick time vs pay time.

The nature of the operation for certain carriers gives them a built in advantage on efficiency.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
sepia
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:51 pm
Location: creating a warmer print tone

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by sepia »

WestJet doesn't pay their pilots "so well". If you compare total compensation and benefits between a 737 captain and a 320 captain at Air Canada I believe you'll see quite the disparity. The disparity only becomes greater any year that the stocks decline.
---------- ADS -----------
 
... on the midnight train to romford
CanadianEh
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:00 pm
Location: YYZ

Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Post by CanadianEh »

sepia wrote:WestJet doesn't pay their pilots "so well". If you compare total compensation and benefits between a 737 captain and a 320 captain at Air Canada I believe you'll see quite the disparity. The disparity only becomes greater any year that the stocks decline.
]

Fair enough. I was thinking more of the U.S. airlines when I made that comment. Compare a 12 year AA 737 Capt with a 12 year Southwest pilot and that's quite the discrepancy. Best of luck to all AC pilots in the negotiations, us younger generation of pilots look up to you.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”