Contract Negotiations, LOL
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Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
You don't know whether to laugh or cry?? ..


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Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL

Stock up.
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Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
OMFG that was awsome. 

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Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL


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Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
That is so right on the money. Congratulations to whom ever made it.
It should be sent to every pilot at ACPA to show them how pathetic they have become.
It should be sent to every pilot at ACPA to show them how pathetic they have become.
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Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
It has been said many, many times but clearly what has always been needed is an acceptance of the need to relinquish control to professional negotiators and send them in to get the job done. The pilots should remain at arms length. Just sit behind the yoke and fly the planes and pretty much nothing else because the qualifications to bargain are just not there. This relentless fear of losing control of the situation is only compounding the problem, and make no mistake, it will get much worse unless the modus operandi changes completely.
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Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
Fair enough, but do these professional negotiators actually understand what is important to the entire pilot group? I agree with you wholeheartedly that you should bring the most powerful weapons you can to the fight, but just make sure they truly understand your priorities before you put them in the ring.accumulous wrote:It has been said many, many times but clearly what has always been needed is an acceptance of the need to relinquish control to professional negotiators and send them in to get the job done. The pilots should remain at arms length. Just sit behind the yoke and fly the planes and pretty much nothing else because the qualifications to bargain are just not there. This relentless fear of losing control of the situation is only compounding the problem, and make no mistake, it will get much worse unless the modus operandi changes completely.
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Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
IMHO sending pilots into that ring is like taking the proverbial knife to a gunfight or the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where Harrison Ford (The Company) watches the Ninja type guy flail away for a while and then just shoots him. I think pilots have a grossly overinflated sense of their abilities in negotiating and it shows. No offense intended, as they do get in there and give it a real try, but at the end of the day, management says 'Boo' and just flushes the birds.Fair enough, but do these professional negotiators actually understand what is important to the entire pilot group? I agree with you wholeheartedly that you should bring the most powerful weapons you can to the fight, but just make sure they truly understand your priorities before you put them in the ring.
When the 'deal' gets sent back to the population for the big vote, of course it always passes.
It passes for the same reason that when you put an ad out for 50 pilots you will always get 5000 applications for jobs that pay less than half of what a city bus driver pays even in a recession. It's the big shiny brass ring. The big AC. The pilot negotiators will never really have any fear of the membership voting down what they bring back to the fold.
So it doesn't seem to matter what any of the rank and file wants them to produce in the big room. When the big spotlight gets turned in their face it always seems to produce the big concessions. It's not their fault. They're just not endorsed for that. It's not just this outfit - as you notice it's a lot of the industry. At the end of the day after all the high hopes and fluffing about and parading around is done with, you've got JAZZ walking off with the airline right under your nose.
You don't go rifling through your list to find some inexperienced volunteers to go sit on a committee in front of the kind of business expertise and savvy that can reduce you to rubble in a day. You go out and buy the best damn professional negotiators you can find and you send them in there, period. And don't follow them into the room yourself. Go fly the plane and let them report back to you.
The amazing thing is that with the kind of union dues there are floating around, the boys can afford the pros any day of the week, in spades. But you just can't pry the pilots fingers off the stick. IMHO it just ain't gonna happen. Never has. Never will. They'll use some 'experts' as confidants but that's as far as it goes.
Just one opinion.
P.S.
If you just can't find the rocks to get a real pro negotiating team in there, send in the Flight Attendants. Look how they did after CCAA. How long did it take them to snap back to normal after concessions in comparison to the pilots??? Send in the women. Try to pry a purse out of a woman's hands. She'll whack you up both sides of the face with it, pull your shorts up over the top of your head, and launch you into the nearest dumpster. Try it with a pilot and he'll just say thanks, won't happen again sir, just glad to be here sir, 'scuse me sir.
Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
Seriously? Way to keep your eye on the prizeaccumulous wrote:you've got JAZZ walking off with the airline right under your nose.

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Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
Meaning more to do with the birth and growth of regional carriers versus their parents worldwide. Not an overnight process - stretch it over the last 20 years. A lose-lose situation for everybody involved.Seriously? Way to keep your eye on the prize
In fact, the race to the bottom has taken so long, there have been two or three decades to pull the damn thing out of the spin but even that wasn't enough time when you can't get the horses all going in the same direction, because once again, pilots can't seem to negotiate.
Regionals not part of the Mainline, Mainline losing seats to the Regionals. Nobody wins, everybody loses. AC is the conductor. Mainline and Regional are the orchestra. They're throwing tubas and drums and horns at each other all over the pit. No music, just a big old noise. Should always have been 1 list but again the type A personalities was all it took to make sure everybody on both sides gets divided and conquered. Taking my ball and going home syndrome with whatever I can cram into the bag, very little foresight, which has all become hindsight and here we are in a great big tug of war over a snake pit. Nice. Oh, and the lawsuits will do very well to ensure it all stays the same course.
Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
hey don't blame AC on this one... Blame the folks down south (American Mainlines) for starting up this entire low cost/regional race. WJ was the pioneer in Canada and AC was forced to take the same steps.
Should I remind you guys of this documentary? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... heap/view/
Anyways, I agree, we are not the 'smartest' negotiators when it comes down to contract improvements.
Should I remind you guys of this documentary? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... heap/view/
Anyways, I agree, we are not the 'smartest' negotiators when it comes down to contract improvements.
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Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
Those things keep getting better and better!!! 

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Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
I wonder if anyone has sent these links to the head of ACPA.
Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
The race to the bottom started with the introduction of de-regulation into the marketplace. Legacy carriers forced to change in the face of competition against new, lower cost (overhead) operators domestically and gradually with globalization internationally. De-regulation is here to stay, regrettably the compensation that was previously enjoyed by the many employees has been gutted and a percentage of that transferred by way of bonuses to those responsible, i.e. executive management.hey don't blame AC on this one... Blame the folks down south (American Mainlines) for starting up this entire low cost/regional race. WJ was the pioneer in Canada and AC was forced to take the same steps.
We can sit here and blame the "regionals" and demand that all flying be brought back to the "parent" airlines, but that will not happen either. The legacy carriers are going to continually be looking for ways to be leaner and it will not matter how lean we end up, when a new entrant shows up, their costs are lower and force the established carriers to cut.
Obviously labour groups are going to have to be creative in how to extract improved pay and working conditions and collectively the airlines, the employees and ultimately the consumers are going to have to exercise pressure on the government to ease up on the taxation and airport rents.
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Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
I love how the "low cost carriers" (notably Southwest and Westjet) manage to pay their pilots so well and still make a profit. They're doing something right. Ryanair took it too far though...
Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
2 things - take a look at the 'all in' cost of the pilots including pension and benefits. And also take a look at efficiency as measured by stick time vs pay time.CanadianEh wrote:I love how the "low cost carriers" (notably Southwest and Westjet) manage to pay their pilots so well and still make a profit. They're doing something right. Ryanair took it too far though...
The nature of the operation for certain carriers gives them a built in advantage on efficiency.
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Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
WestJet doesn't pay their pilots "so well". If you compare total compensation and benefits between a 737 captain and a 320 captain at Air Canada I believe you'll see quite the disparity. The disparity only becomes greater any year that the stocks decline.
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Re: Contract Negotiations, LOL
]sepia wrote:WestJet doesn't pay their pilots "so well". If you compare total compensation and benefits between a 737 captain and a 320 captain at Air Canada I believe you'll see quite the disparity. The disparity only becomes greater any year that the stocks decline.
Fair enough. I was thinking more of the U.S. airlines when I made that comment. Compare a 12 year AA 737 Capt with a 12 year Southwest pilot and that's quite the discrepancy. Best of luck to all AC pilots in the negotiations, us younger generation of pilots look up to you.