Bonds

[Now4Then]

I don't like to stir the pot. I also don't like training bonds, but understand why some companies have them.

If you feel the need to sign a bond, if it has gotten to that point. If you decide to lean on Mom and Dad's ATM machine with no regard to what money is, and where it comes from. If you are locked in, for the love of Mary grow a f**cking pair of nuts and ATLEAST honour the bond if you can't honour yourself.

People who can't live up to their hand shake are cowards, and are the reason bonds are around. But people who can't stay the duration of their bond, are the reason they will not be going anywhere. Not everyone has Mom and Dad to lean on, stop f**king it up for everyone else.

[tired of the ground]

I'm not a particular fan of bonds myself. I also stand by my word. If I tell you I will stay for x amount of time, I will. I do believe however that the company is not asking you to stay for the entire duration of the bond. The company is only asking you for some money if you leave before the bond is up.

If companies are all asking for bonds and all asking for time on type then it is in their best interest to make sure you WANT to stay around. If I can pay a small amount of money to make significantly more elsewhere then it is in my best interest to leave. Don't believe for second that a company will keep you around if it isn't in their best interest. A company will drop you faster than you can say BOND if they'll make (or prevent loosing) money.

Stick to your word if you made a promise. Look out for yourself if you're in a business arrangement.

[BusDriver]

Stick to your word if you made a promise. Look out for yourself if you're in a business arrangement.

Hopefully this applies to the Company as well? I know too many guy's who have been promised the world only to find out it is a completely different ball game after the paperwork has been signed and they are fresh out of the sim.

[frankfrank]

You think it would be in everyone's best interest for a PPC or type rating to be non transferable. All the same requirements, but only good for one company.

Just think...

Companies not stabbing other companies in the back by stealing their type rated pilots.
Pilots not stabbing other pilots in the back by going and buying a type rating.
Employees not jumping ship with their freshly minted rating.

If these scenarios were eliminated, you would think it would help ease the pressure on companies to request bonds for training.

frankfrank

[FlaplessDork]

Instead of bonds do a reduced salary for the first year, then a guaranteed bonus at the end of the term. If you leave before the term, no bonus. After which your salary increases to X amount.

Some people leave before their term in up because they want to get out of a bad company.

[trey kule]

If you offer a reduced salary it has two potential consequences. The first is you pilot is living on less money compared to the others...not a good situation. Secondly, it encourages pilots to jump ship as soon as a better offer comes around. Low salaries are one of the prime motivators for I dont give a damn about your equipment.

I was part of a survey two years that attempted to find out how to address these issues. One thing that shocked me is the number of sleazy companies out there. Right from major airlines down to mom and pop outfits.

The only think I can think of is if you are a moral upright person your only hope is to be hired by an ethical company. There are some signs...Watch how the pay is worded. What can appear like a months salary may to turn out to be far less when the company evides the monthly by 30 or 31 and then pays that for the days "flown" Are days off or rotations spelled out clearly?
Ask yourself why the particular pay structure is set up the way it is. Ask yourself why some companies are continually hiring pilots, or if they are a seasonal company, why they are replacing pilots mid season.

As long as people are people it is not an issue that will be solved.

[snow-monkey]

If you pay a bond, you've paid for your own training. You owe the company nothing at this point. If you can leave for a job that will make more money, thus paying off your bond faster, why not? If you can leave a dangerous company for a safe company, why not?

If you don't pay a bond and agree to a promise, you should keep your promise. Bonds eliminate the need to make promises.. Right?

[trey kule]

True enough. I would be interested in how many pilots offer to pay off theiroutstanding bonds when leaving. I have heard of a few cases where the hiring company assumed the bond. And quite a few cases where pilots paid their bonds after a court decision.

The other side of th equation is that there should be clauses in the bond to release the pilot from any obligation if the company becomes insovent or bankrupt, or ceases business, or decides to lay the pilot off.

bonds, unfortunately are a necessary reality in todays world, but they are just one part of the hiring conditions. I have seen bonds for 18 months on initial and a further 6 months for the first renewal. The 18 month initial means the bond will still be in place if you dont do a renweal, and if you do the renewal, you are there for another year...slimy

[FlaplessDork]

If you offer a reduced salary it has two potential consequences.

Doesn't have to mean low salary or a "reduced salary". Just a salary and pay scale which factors in the training costs for a particular individual so the company doesn't suffer a huge loss if that person leaves earlier than planned. The employee benefits by not being locked into a bond, and has the motivation of a bonus if he sticks around. The key for the bonus would be that it can't be performance based. I've seen sleaze ball companies look for any excuse not to pay out a bonus.

The first is you pilot is living on less money compared to the others...not a good situation.

Isn't this a normal fact of employment based on seniority, value of the employee, and work ethic? More valuable employee's should be paid more. Employee's that have proven themselves should be paid more.

Secondly, it encourages pilots to jump ship as soon as a better offer comes around.

If its done right, with a fair employer it can work. If its in writing, and the promises are delivered I think it can work, and people would stick around longer.

I think this can work for a company that is concerned about their image, and providing a top notch service.

[KK7]

You think it would be in everyone's best interest for a PPC or type rating to be non transferable. All the same requirements, but only good for one company.

Just think...

Companies not stabbing other companies in the back by stealing their type rated pilots.
Pilots not stabbing other pilots in the back by going and buying a type rating.
Employees not jumping ship with their freshly minted rating.

If these scenarios were eliminated, you would think it would help ease the pressure on companies to request bonds for training.

frankfrank

This is the only thing that can fix it, IMHO. Attach the PPC to the OC.

[Now4Then]

If you choose to leave 1-2 months in...what I am getting at is, how is this any different then going somewhere and paying for a PPC. Only through a company, you've given them a reason to keep bonds around.

[Lost Lake]

Instead of bonds do a reduced salary for the first year, then a guaranteed bonus at the end of the term. If you leave before the term, no bonus. After which your salary increases to X amount.

I am a man of my word. I also research the company enough to determine what I am getting into. I fly to make MONEY! Give me the bond and give me the MONEY now! We're already underpaid in this industry. If I am good enough, they will give me a raise or bonus. It's worked for me for the last 20 years.

[BingBong]

I don't like to stir the pot. I also don't like training bonds, but understand why some companies have them.

If you feel the need to sign a bond, if it has gotten to that point. If you decide to lean on Mom and Dad's ATM machine with no regard to what money is, and where it comes from. If you are locked in, for the love of Mary grow a f**cking pair of nuts and ATLEAST honour the bond if you can't honour yourself.

People who can't live up to their hand shake are cowards, and are the reason bonds are around. But people who can't stay the duration of their bond, are the reason they will not be going anywhere. Not everyone has Mom and Dad to lean on, stop f**king it up for everyone else.

Welcome to Avcanada....your off to the usual (cct jockey/armchair captain) start.....I think you'll fit in quite nicely!

Cheers!

[Tim]

You think it would be in everyone's best interest for a PPC or type rating to be non transferable. All the same requirements, but only good for one company.

Just think...

Companies not stabbing other companies in the back by stealing their type rated pilots.
Pilots not stabbing other pilots in the back by going and buying a type rating.
Employees not jumping ship with their freshly minted rating.

If these scenarios were eliminated, you would think it would help ease the pressure on companies to request bonds for training.

frankfrank

that's a remarkably terrible idea.

this sounds a lot like what they do in china. they own your license. if you quit the company, you quit flying.

the ideas that rules and prohibitions are the way to elicit loyalty is a pretty '1984' train of thought.

what's to stop a company from threating to fire someone - and strip them of their ppc along with it - in order to get compliance with things like flying over gross?

maybe not the worst idea i've seen on avcanada, but it's up there.

[cdnpilot77]

I haven't seen the idea of some type of graduated monthly salary floated yet.

For example, if your starting salary for year 1 will be $4500/mo start the person at $2000 in month 1, $2200 in month 2, $2400 in month 3 etc... With a bonus at the end of the first year to add up to the equivalent of making $4500/ mo over the course of the year. The numbers would obviously have to be jockeyed to make the numbers fit but flame away at why this isn't a good idea in place of a bond. Seems like it would be a win/win, pilots gets his money if he sticks, company doesn't pay out if he doesn't stick, the longer you stay, the more you make.

[snow-monkey]

If you choose to leave 1-2 months in...what I am getting at is, how is this any different then going somewhere and paying for a PPC. Only through a company, you've given them a reason to keep bonds around.

If you leave for a better paying job, that difference in salary between your new job and the one you left is what pays the bond. The company that scooped you up is paying for your training indirectly by paying you more in salary.

You've got to look out for your own interests because you can bet the company you work for is going to look after theirs. Don't turn down better pay because you feel some obligation to a company that didn't pay to train you. You paid for your training, now maximize profit on that investment.

[frankfrank]

that's a remarkably terrible idea.

this sounds a lot like what they do in china. they own your license. if you quit the company, you quit flying.

the ideas that rules and prohibitions are the way to elicit loyalty is a pretty '1984' train of thought.

what's to stop a company from threating to fire someone - and strip them of their ppc along with it - in order to get compliance with things like flying over gross?

maybe not the worst idea i've seen on avcanada, but it's up there.

Thanks for the constructive criticism.

[kevenv]

I'm not a pilot and I have no opinion on bonds.

Every time the topic of bonds comes up I ask the following which has yet to be answered:

Why can't a bond be paid to a lawyer "in trust".
Pilot stays full term, pilot gets money back.
Company goes out of business, pilot gets money back.
Pilot leaves early, pilot loses money.

Company doesn't get their hands on the money. Unless pilot leaves early of course. Is it more complicated than that?

[fish4life]

I haven't seen the idea of some type of graduated monthly salary floated yet.

For example, if your starting salary for year 1 will be $4500/mo start the person at $2000 in month 1, $2200 in month 2, $2400 in month 3 etc... With a bonus at the end of the first year to add up to the equivalent of making $4500/ mo over the course of the year. The numbers would obviously have to be jockeyed to make the numbers fit but flame away at why this isn't a good idea in place of a bond. Seems like it would be a win/win, pilots gets his money if he sticks, company doesn't pay out if he doesn't stick, the longer you stay, the more you make.

The problem with that is lots of qualified candidates won't be able to take the job because they couldn't afford the low pay to start. Pay a good wage and treating your employee's well is the best way to ensure they don't jump ship early.

Out of curiosity of those people that do have training bonds are they money you put up front? and if so does the company pay you interest on the money THEY as they take 2 years or whatever the bond is to pay you back?
Or do you have a bond type where you owe them money only if you leave and don't have to put the money up front?

[Tim]

I'm pretty content with the way it works for me.

I signed a training agreement that says I have to stay a year. If I don't I have to pay them for a portion of the training cost, which decreases every month. My boss told me that despite the agreement, they generally only go after someone that leaves in under a year if that someone really screwed them over (they have the track record to back that statement up). The funny thing is, so many people stay here long term that they rarely have to worry about it happening, let alone chasing someone for money...wonder why that is...

The agreement basically pans down to work hard, don't screw us, we'll pay for everything and treat you well.

Sounded like a good deal to me.

[Tim]

Thanks for the constructive criticism.

is that sarcasm? i see you don't post much, so for future reference you should include a smiley.

for example: you're idea was great and in no way would contribute to pilots losing pay, bargaining power or making working conditions worse

btw, you didn't answer my question

what's to stop a company from threating to fire someone - and strip them of their ppc along with it - in order to get compliance with things like flying over gross?

[short bus]

The non-transferable ppc is a good idea. not being able to transfer type ratings is ridiculous though.

[Lost Lake]

I haven't seen the idea of some type of graduated monthly salary floated yet.

For example, if your starting salary for year 1 will be $4500/mo start the person at $2000 in month 1, $2200 in month 2, $2400 in month 3 etc... With a bonus at the end of the first year to add up to the equivalent of making $4500/ mo over the course of the year. The numbers would obviously have to be jockeyed to make the numbers fit but flame away at why this isn't a good idea in place of a bond. Seems like it would be a win/win, pilots gets his money if he sticks, company doesn't pay out if he doesn't stick, the longer you stay, the more you make.

I'll take that idea to my creditors. I just know they'll love it and have sympathy for me. I have a license to fly. When | hire on to a new company I take a chance. When they hire me on, they take a chance. Like I posted earlier. Pay me now, not pro-rated. No other industry works like that. If it's a sleazy operator, I can see it now, save $4,000 in wages and eat the $2,000 cost and tell Johnny...sorry, business is slow got to let you go. We'll skip the bond.

Why does anyone on here want to screw up (around) with wages? I do my job, pay me now.

[cdnpilot77]

I haven't seen the idea of some type of graduated monthly salary floated yet.

For example, if your starting salary for year 1 will be $4500/mo start the person at $2000 in month 1, $2200 in month 2, $2400 in month 3 etc... With a bonus at the end of the first year to add up to the equivalent of making $4500/ mo over the course of the year. The numbers would obviously have to be jockeyed to make the numbers fit but flame away at why this isn't a good idea in place of a bond. Seems like it would be a win/win, pilots gets his money if he sticks, company doesn't pay out if he doesn't stick, the longer you stay, the more you make.

I'll take that idea to my creditors. I just know they'll love it and have sympathy for me. I have a license to fly. When | hire on to a new company I take a chance. When they hire me on, they take a chance. Like I posted earlier. Pay me now, not pro-rated. No other industry works like that. If it's a sleazy operator, I can see it now, save $4,000 in wages and eat the $2,000 cost and tell Johnny...sorry, business is slow got to let you go. We'll skip the bond.

Why does anyone on here want to screw up (around) with wages? I do my job, pay me now.

That's a good point, but i think they would be a lot more understanding than saying to them "hey i cant pay my bills,but i need another $10g's to get a job" at the same time, honest operators aren't getting f'ed by the sleazy pilot that's gonna take the ppc and run. It's a catch 22, but there has to be a solution outside of bonds. Thinking outside the cozy comfy box of entitlement (on pilot and operators parts) that we live in is what will be requied to get there.

[CBSW]

Look why you are being bonded! In some cases, not all, the bond is there for a reason.. Some companies are just looking out for themselves.. Others know you will be unhappy and use it as a way to keep you around while enduring a piss poor work environment