Pilots contract

[CanadianEh]

Off to arbitration yet or what?

[bcflyer]

Nope not even close.

[vic777]

Off to arbitration yet or what?

We do the silly dance for a while. Negotiators stay in Hotels and drink beer for a while. A Company and Government approved arbitrator is the last phase.

[CanadianEh]

Nope not even close.

What's this I heard about some 3rd party involvement recently?

[mbav8r]

globe and mail Oct 27,2011
Air Canada’s labour dispute with its 2,900 pilots will be heading to conciliation.

Captain Paul Strachan, president of the Air Canada Pilots Association, said the airline has filed a “notice of dispute” with Ottawa, a move that will trigger the appointment of a conciliator.

“We are disappointed that Air Canada has chosen to escalate the situation before we returned to the bargaining table,” Captain Strachan said in a statement Thursday.

the rest of the article, http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-in ... le2215948/

[Fanblade]

They're going to ram TA1 down our throats


Thanks for all you have done to the profession ACPA.

What professional organization can have so little in the way of checks and balances that a handful of people can do so much damage?

[vic777]

What ... organization can have so little in the way of checks and balances that a handful of people can do so much damage?

The United States of America, it would appear.

[morefun]

You'll be lucky to get what they offered in TA1.....

[vic777]

You'll be lucky to get what they offered in TA1.....

Remember that old, "Don't Press to Test" nonsense? Ya gotta have a sense of humour.

[bcflyer]

They're going to ram TA1 down our throats


Thanks for all you have done to the profession ACPA.

What professional organization can have so little in the way of checks and balances that a handful of people can do so much damage?

Nice attitude. We are far from having anything shoved down our throat.

[yycflyguy]

They're going to ram TA1 down our throats


Thanks for all you have done to the profession ACPA.

What professional organization can have so little in the way of checks and balances that a handful of people can do so much damage?

Nice attitude. We are far from having anything shoved down our throat.

Hope you are right. I am not so certain.

The parallels between AC and QANTAS labour strife is a little spooky.

[bcflyer]

Qantas already has a low cost up and running. They can easily transfer flying to it if mainline doesn't play ball. AC doesn't have that option. There is no LCC and our scope clause is quite clear that any flying done by AC will be done by ACPA pilots. (with the exception anything we have granted lets for. Tier 2 and 3 etc) The Qantas pilots didn't have that protection.

Have some faith in our NC. Let them actually start talking before declaring the sky is falling because Qantas locked out their pilots.

[yycflyguy]

Qantas already has a low cost up and running. They can easily transfer flying to it if mainline doesn't play ball. AC doesn't have that option. There is no LCC and our scope clause is quite clear that any flying done by AC will be done by ACPA pilots. (with the exception anything we have granted lets for. Tier 2 and 3 etc) The Qantas pilots didn't have that protection.

Have some faith in our NC. Let them actually start talking before declaring the sky is falling because Qantas locked out their pilots.

Our Scope has already been violated with SR, Q400s, JV's and codeshare. Makes me think our "iron-clad" scope provisions are not so "iron-clad". Especially when the MEC of the day authorized the SR "let".

I have faith in the new MEC and NC. Might be a moot point if the company refuses to sit down to actually bargain in good faith. Not even a week later and the pilot anger has already dissipated at the latest slap in the face.

[Fanblade]

Nice attitude. We are far from having anything shoved down our throat.

Clearly you don't fully comprehend what is transpiring.

Air Canada management is deliberately creating a crisis for Raitt To solve.

Unless you act you are a sheep to slaughter.

[flyer 1492]

Bend over boys, this ones gonna hurt....

[ratherbee]

It's already check mate and the new MEC thought they were playing checkers. As the NC stated, once the cooling off period is done, so is our present contract, including A1.10.

So much for greater good

[yycflyguy]

It's already check mate and the new MEC thought they were playing checkers. As the NC stated, once the cooling off period is done, so is our present contract, including A1.10.

So much for greater good

I think you need to re-read the latest NC newsletter.

[ratherbee]

The Nov 4 NC BS was what prompted me to respond. All three "scenarios" are happening simultaneously.

Is it acceptable to mislead the members by withholding the truth, and charting a course to failure? Yes, because under the "greater good" philosophy, lying is justified if it creates an overall gain. However, in this case the overall gain is not a pay raise or job growth - it's saving face.

[bcflyer]

Is it acceptable to mislead the members by withholding the truth, and charting a course to failure?

Please fill us in on what exactly the truth is.

[ratherbee]

I guess you have to ask the right questions to get the truth. There has been a lot of advice and feedback gathered over the last 6 months. What is it? Why can't we see at least some of it? What would professional negotiators say about all of this?

[hopper]

With respect to the NC and management, it's not AC's fault that the world is demanding more for their money. Flying is going to become cheaper and more and more common as a form of transport globally. It’s both AC and the unions fault for not recognizing the pace at which the industry is changing and working together to grow and stay competitive. This is very typical of the old corporate leadership styles that have been failing as the economy changes rapidly.

While many are frustrated, it's narrow minded to blame your NC or management to some extent. I think the financial state of AC is far bigger than the employee groups and poor management when you look at the larger picture. The aviation industry has changed rapidly on a global scale. This is unprecedented. Global demand for lower airfares with super thin margins makes LCC the only profitable way to proceed in airline transport. Unfortunately these legacy carriers have quickly become big inefficient dinosaurs. I don't think management or employee groups at AC, or any other legacy carrier have the capacity to keep up with how fast the economy is changing and what the public is demanding nor can they work together to transition the current structure to something that will ever be sustainable. It's sad, but the only way AC will survive the future is to transition to a successful modern LCC. I think it's inevitable, and I also think the union should delay this as long as possible. Unfortunately, I think AC is bleeding and I think in the end, future sustainability of AC will trump the employee group’s wishes. It's a reality of the current economy that benefits such as defined benefit pensions are gone in all corporate structures and it is unfortunate that there will always be pilots willing to work cheaper. We can only hope that global demand will create a shortage of pilots, however, cadet programs are quickly becoming the answer to high wages and empty seats.

In the end the union may not be able to do anything about delaying this LCC. It is inevitable at some point. We are sitting in the “lost” decade in Western economies. Therefore ACPA has a big responsibility to insure that when this LCC materializes, that it sets the stage for descent salaries and working conditions and benefits for the future of many in Canadian Aviation and likely those who are hoping for a future with AC. I think it will be a big mistake to pass this off as another Zip, Tango etc. If AC has learned its lesson and can become a modern low cost carrier that is efficient across the board, this may be the Air Canada of the future. I’ll venture a step further and suggest that if AC wants to survive, this LCC has to materialize, be profitable and sustainable. I don’t think they are in a position to fail again.

A positive side to this is that an AC LCC has to be efficient and it has to empower and value its employee’s like the newer, modern corporate structures that work with their employees to create more profits and better products together. I can't wrap my head around why, AC wouldn't transition the bulk of their inefficient AC flying to this carrier after it has been developed.
You can't deny the fact that the only truly profitable airlines are the modern LCC. Oddly enough most of their pilots are well compensated. ACPA has a slippery slope ahead, hopefully it can recognize what positive changes it can help implement and not waste time bickering against what they may really have no control over.
It’s true that the cards are stacked against ACPA, it’s not the NC’s fault, but hopefully they can retain some control over the future and influence a structure that can maintain some dignity to a dying profession. Controlled crash comes to mind.

[The Hammer]

Evolve or die

Someones has to be the next Eaton's, Nortel, Canwest,.........My bet is RIM but AC is a close second.

Did anyone imagine these companies disappearing when they were at the top of their game? The latter two took less than a decade to disappear.

Good luck going forward, may the force be with you as you navigate the downward slope (vs a cliff) of legacy carrier and it's baggage to competitive airline.

[ratherbee]

....thread drift.

The question was: Off to arbitration yet or what?

Now it looks close. So will there be a LCC in the award or will it be outsourced to someone else? Or maybe ACPA can actually reach an agreement?

[yycflyguy]

....thread drift.

The question was: Off to arbitration yet or what?

Now it looks close. So will there be a LCC in the award or will it be outsourced to someone else? Or maybe ACPA can actually reach an agreement?

My apologies if the following sounds harsh.

If you are an AC pilot, you haven't been paying attention.

The negotiation process will continue this week. A CONCILIATOR was appointed to help facilitate the negotiation process. There is no arbitration at this point. The NC has been completing their mini WAWCON survey to see were the emphasis should be placed in negotiations. For now, it is normal negotiations with a "supervisor" in the room.

The NC and the MEC have stated that the negotiation process will be based on our current CBA. Not the TA that contained provisions for a LCC. That TA was NOT recommended by the MEC and was voted down by the pilot group. There are no provisions for a LCC in the current CBA.

LCC flying is protected by our current CBA and by our Scope so it wont be outsourced.

[Stu Pidasso]

LCC flying is protected by our current CBA and by our Scope so it wont be outsourced.

What if it is done under the Air Canada Vacations flag? I haven't looked at Scope Language for years, but good chance there are plenty of loop holes.