Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

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Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by flies-occasionally »

Hopefully an easy question for someone here, but I cannot find an answer in the regs or on the web.

I got my night rating about five years ago, but haven't been up at night in the past three. I have continued to remain current/recent for day VFR (fly every week or so). What restrictions are there for me getting back up at night? The only relevant information i can find is the five night T/Os and landings in the previous 6 months if I want to carry passengers. Is there anything else governing night VFR currency/recency?

Thanks in advance!
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by KK7 »

No, you found all that exists for private night currency. However, if you are renting an airplane from a flying club or school, they likely have more restrictive policy on night currency (usually for good reason). If it's been a while, I would normally suggest a quick flight with an instructor and review your night flying lesson notes.
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by flies-occasionally »

KK7 wrote:No, you found all that exists for private night currency. However, if you are renting an airplane from a flying club or school, they likely have more restrictive policy on night currency (usually for good reason). If it's been a while, I would normally suggest a quick flight with an instructor and review your night flying lesson notes.
Thanks for the quick answer! I don't rent through a club or school, but am planning on going up once or twice with an instructor on my first nights back.
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by Colonel Sanders »

If you own your own airplane, it is legal for you to jump in
your own airplane and regain night currency as the sole
occupant of the aircraft (you can't carry pax) and do 5
takeoffs and landings. Some people will start doing circuits
at twilight to get a nice gentle transition to nighttime.

If you have a long enough runway, you can get night current
in one pass down the runway, just tap one main on the runway
4 times, pull the power and come to a stop at the end of the
runway and taxi back.

That's legal, but is it smart? Up to you - that's why you're
PIC.

More than once, I have regained night currency as PIC with
another person on board. How do I legally do that? When
I am giving night dual as an instructor, of course. If I am
giving dual, the other occupant of the aircraft isn't a
passenger - he's flight crew, so no animals are harmed and
no regulations are contravened.

I have been flying enough decades that I don't really care
if it's day or night, VFR or IFR, nosewheel or tailwheel,
air-cooled or liquid-cooled, single or multi, boxer or radial
or turbine, you just push everything forward and off it goes.
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by gustind »

Colonel Sanders wrote: More than once, I have regained night currency as PIC with
another person on board. How do I legally do that? When
I am giving night dual as an instructor, of course. If I am
giving dual, the other occupant of the aircraft isn't a
passenger - he's flight crew, so no animals are harmed and
no regulations are contravened.
Unnamed Transport Canada Inspector wrote:... the flight instructor must be current at night in order to fly with a student. The student cannot be considered to be a crew member. If an instructor has not completed five night take-offs and five night landings within the six months preceding the flight, he/she must do that prior to flying with a student.
That is a quote I got from my local TC inspector when I asked him about this back in August.
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by Colonel Sanders »

the flight instructor must be current at night in order to fly with a student
What CAR would the instructor be charged with contravening?
The student cannot be considered to be a crew member
That's nonsense. Of course the student is a crew member. CAR 101.01(1) states:
"flight crew member" - means a crew member assigned to act as pilot or flight engineer of an aircraft during flight time
Please keep in mind that any given individual you may meet - whom may or may not work for Transport - might or might not like chocolate, or garlic. While that may or may not be interesting, you or I may still partake in chocolate or garlic, and meanwhile what governs aviation in Canada is the Canadian Aviation Regulations and the Aeronautics Act, which are remarkably silent on the subjects of chocolate, or garlic for that matter.

I am quite happy to receive a registered letter from Transport alleging that I have beem partaking in either (or both of) chocolate or garlic. If so, I will fax off the usual Request for Review, Request for Stay and Request for Discovery to Mary Cannon at the Tribunal, and we can spend enormous amounts of the taxpayer's money discussing either (or both of) chocolate (or garlic) at the Tribunal, Tribunal Review, Federal Court and Federal Court of Appeals. Been there, done that.

A few years back, Transport Canada successfully argued in court that aerobatics below 18,000 feet was illegal because there was not the required 3 miles forward visibility from the front cockpit in a vertical downline. While that was about as amusing (and relevant) as a ban on chocolate (or garlic), I had that nonsense overturned on appeal.
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

gustind wrote:
Unnamed Transport Canada Inspector wrote:... the flight instructor must be current at night in order to fly with a student. The student cannot be considered to be a crew member. If an instructor has not completed five night take-offs and five night landings within the six months preceding the flight, he/she must do that prior to flying with a student.
That is a quote I got from my local TC inspector when I asked him about this back in August.
Mr Unnamed may wish it were so but as CS pointed out the CARs impose no such requirement. I have also used student circuits to revalidate both of our night currency requirements.
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by Colonel Sanders »

btw, thx for the reminder - I need to send Mary at the Tribunal a Christmas card.
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by trampbike »

Colonel Sanders wrote:A few years back, Transport Canada successfully argued in court that aerobatics below 18,000 feet was illegal because there was not the required 3 miles forward visibility from the front cockpit in a vertical downline.
:shock:
You're kidding right? (I'm pretty sure your are not, but I really hope you are...)
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by Colonel Sanders »

You're kidding right?
Nope. You can't make stuff this weird up. At least, I can't.

Even though it had no regulatory standing in Canada, during
the appeal I referred to the FAR's definition of flight visibility:

http://tinyurl.com/74dx8xg
Flight visibility means the average forward horizontal distance, from the cockpit of an aircraft in flight, at which prominent unlighted objects may be seen and identified by day and prominent lighted objects may be seen and identified by night.
which refers to HORIZONTAL distance, not VERTICAL distance.

This had the effect of overturning the lower court precedent
which effectively outlawed all aerobatics in Canada, because
with 3 miles forward visibility being required at all times, this
meant that in a vertical downline, you had to be above 18,000
feet (in class A airspace) and in a vertical upline, you had to
have a ceiling no lower than 36,000 feet.

I argued that this would have a deleterious effect on airshows
in Canada. The higher court bought the FAA's "horizontal"
caveat and overturned the lower court's decision.

On the subject of flight visibility. When I am doing this:

http://tinyurl.com/ck9omru

what is my flight visibility? Assume that I have not filed
IFR for the tumble, and that I am at less than 1,000 AGL
in controlled airspace. And, am I maintaining the required
vertical distance from cloud in controlled airspace?

Gotta get that Christmas card off to Mary.
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by RenegadeAV8R »

gustind wrote:
Unnamed Transport Canada Inspector wrote:... the flight instructor must be current at night in order to fly with a student. The student cannot be considered to be a crew member. If an instructor has not completed five night take-offs and five night landings within the six months preceding the flight, he/she must do that prior to flying with a student.
That is a quote I got from my local TC inspector when I asked him about this back in August.
A student pilot, flying with a Flight Instructor, is not a passenger.

This Unnamed Transport Canada Inspector gave is own personal interpretation, which was based on nothing.


A student pilot may not be considered as a flight crew, but it is not a passenger either.


Is a student pilot doing his flight test with a flight test examiner on board (Transport Canada Inspector or a DFTE) is acting as a PIC with a passenger on board? No, this is impossible as a student pilot cannot act as PIC with a passenger on board. But the CAR is silent about this subject as well.
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by Colonel Sanders »

A student pilot may not be considered as a flight crew
A student pilot surely is flight crew as defined by the Canadian Aviation
Regulations 101.01(1) above. When he is flying with an instructor,
the student logs dual flight time. Only flight crew logs flight time,
and this cannot be argued.

When the student is flying solo - as regulations require him to do -
he is indisputably PIC of the aircraft and logs it as such. It is sheer
insanity to claim that the PIC (and sole occupant) of an aircraft is NOT
flight crew! A student may not fly solo unless he is issued a Student
Pilot Permit, which explicitly allows him to fly as solo as PIC in Day VFR,
anywhere in Canada. Anyone exercising the privileges of their Student
Pilot Permit and acting as PIC of an aircraft is without any doubt flight
crew, and anyone who says otherwise is spouting complete nonsense.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Don't you need a PPL to get a night rating?
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by Colonel Sanders »

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Post by Beefitarian »

Right.
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by Rowdy Burns »

RenegadeAV8R wrote:A student pilot may not be considered as a flight crew, but it is not a passenger either.

Is a student pilot doing his flight test with a flight test examiner on board (Transport Canada Inspector or a DFTE) is acting as a PIC with a passenger on board? No, this is impossible as a student pilot cannot act as PIC with a passenger on board. But the CAR is silent about this subject as well.
Actually, it is possible. And the CARs aren't silent....
Canadian Air Regulations wrote: DIVISION III - STUDENT PILOT PERMITS

Privileges

401.19 The holder of a student pilot permit may, for the sole purpose of the holder's flight training or flight test, act as pilot-in-command of any aircraft of the category to which the permit relates, where

[...]

(c) in the case of a flight test,

(i) it is conducted in accordance with Section 401.15, and

(ii) no passenger other than the person referred to in paragraph 401.15(1)(a) [(Transport Canada Inspector or a DFTE)] is carried on board.
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by RenegadeAV8R »

Rowdy Burns wrote: DIVISION III - STUDENT PILOT PERMITS

Privileges

401.19 The holder of a student pilot permit may, for the sole purpose of the holder's flight training or flight test, act as pilot-in-command of any aircraft of the category to which the permit relates, where

(ii) no passenger other than the person referred to in paragraph 401.15(1)(a) [(Transport Canada Inspector or a DFTE)] is carried on board.
Thanks Rowdy Burns, I stand corrected.
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Oh and by the way, all parachuting ops in Canada are completely
illegal, regardless of any OC or the usual SFOC's. Always has
been. Credit to my kid for spotting these contraventions while he
was studying for his PPL.
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Re:

Post by RenegadeAV8R »

Beefitarian wrote:Don't you need a PPL to get a night rating?
You are right, a PPL is required to get a night rating. The pilot receiving dual instruction toward a Night Rating is not a passenger, and as stated by another poster, this "student" pilot is a crew member and he is logging dual flight time.
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by Av_Av »

When the student is flying solo - as regulations require him to do - he is indisputably PIC of the aircraft and logs it as such.
True. But your original comment about regaining night recency was for dual flying, this statement refers to solo flight.
The pilot receiving dual instruction toward a Night Rating is not a passenger, and as stated by another poster, this "student" pilot is a crew member and he is logging dual flight time.

Sure, he's logging time. But I would argue (and I'm guessing so would enforcement) that he still isn't a crew member. Answer three questions:

1) How many crew members are required by the aircraft type certificate?
2) What duties/authorities/responsibilities are held by the student?
3) What category of medical does the student have to hold?

The answers, of course, are 1 (assuming your typical training aircraft here), none, and none, respectively. No allowance on the type certificate for a second pilot, no duties or responsibilities, and no requirement to hold a medical. How can we consider this person to be a crew member?

If your student suddenly drops dead of a heart attack, does that endanger your flight due to his inability to perform? Nope. Has your workload increased? Nope. Some might suggest that your workload has in fact decreased since you're no longer required to teach and can focus on flying only.

So from a regulatory standpoint, I'd say you're on pretty thin ice gaining recency with a student on board. Having said this, from a safety/ethical standpoint, gaining recency with a (licensed) student on board is fine. These students have the ability to give informed consent to the risk(s) they are accepting. Passengers without aviation knowledge are not, and they are the ones the regulations are really meant to protect.

This is one of the many unfortunate fuzzy areas in our regulations. It's really too bad there are so many of these.
A few years back, Transport Canada successfully argued in court that aerobatics below 18,000 feet was illegal because there was not the required 3 miles forward visibility from the front cockpit in a vertical downline.
Sigh ... And this is exactly why fuzzyness is a problem. There is always going to be some idiot who interprets things like this.
Oh and by the way, all parachuting ops in Canada are completely illegal, regardless of any OC or the usual SFOC's. Always has been.
Ok, I'll bite. Why? CAR 602.23 (No person shall create a hazard to persons or property on the surface by dropping an object from an aircraft in flight.) is a pretty weak argument that I've heard before. But that's all I can come up with.

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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by RenegadeAV8R »

Av_Av wrote:
The pilot receiving dual instruction toward a Night Rating is not a passenger, and as stated by another poster, this "student" pilot is a crew member and he is logging dual flight time.

Sure, he's logging time. But I would argue (and I'm guessing so would enforcement) that he still isn't a crew member. Answer three questions:

1) How many crew members are required by the aircraft type certificate?
2) What duties/authorities/responsibilities are held by the student?
3) What category of medical does the student have to hold?

The answers, of course, are 1 (assuming your typical training aircraft here), none, and none, respectively. No allowance on the type certificate for a second pilot, no duties or responsibilities, and no requirement to hold a medical. How can we consider this person to be a crew member?


Av_Av
You are raising interesting points. Here is what I think.

In regard to 1), there are operations out there were 2 pilots are required even though the aircraft type certificate specifies that the aircraft is certified as single pilot.

In regard to 2), the flight would not even take place if it wasn't for the "student" pilot to be on board.

In regard to 3), a student pilot can log actual and valid flight time even before he obtain his medical and his student pilot permit. This is true for all pilots in Canada.


A passenger cannot log actual flight time, therefore a "student" pilot cannot be considered as a passenger. :wink:
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by Colonel Sanders »

all parachuting ops in Canada are completely illegal
Ok, I'll bite
Remember, a 17 yr old figured this out. So can you.

Hint: would it be legal for a jump plane to take off and climb up, then dive
and buzz someone standing in the middle of a field? Why not?
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by Av_Av »

In regard to 1), there are operations out there were 2 pilots are required even though the aircraft type certificate specifies that the aircraft is certified as single pilot.
And for that time to be loggable toward a license or recency requirements, there needs to be a COM (issued under Part 7 or 604) that spells out duties/responsibilities/activities and stipulates the requirement for that second pilot. Further, the second pilot is required to be licensed (i.e. - not acting in the role of a student) and to have a current medical.
In regard to 2), the flight would not even take place if it wasn't for the "student" pilot to be on board.
The same can be said of any payload. If you fly a charter with freight, the freight doesn't qualify as crew. Neither do fare-paying (or along-for-the-ride) passengers.
In regard to 3), a student pilot can log actual and valid flight time even before he obtain his medical and his student pilot permit. This is true for all pilots in Canada.
Yes, but dual only. During a dual flight, you are effectively acting under your instructor's license (and therefore medical), not your own - hence, you are not required to have one.
404.03 No person shall exercise or attempt to exercise the privileges of a permit, licence or rating unless the person holds a valid medical certificate of a category that is appropriate for that permit, licence or rating, as specified in section 404.10.
So holding a valid medical of the appropriate category is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition to act as a crew member.
A passenger cannot log actual flight time, therefore a "student" pilot cannot be considered as a passenger.
Sure he can. You can log whatever you want. The real question about logging time isn't "what can you log?", but "what can you count towards a license/rating application or recency requirements?".

I think your response just goes to show that the regs are unclear. Reasonable people can interpret them differently. This is unfortunate, but it seems to be what we're stuck with ...

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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by Av_Av »

Colonel Sanders wrote:
all parachuting ops in Canada are completely illegal
Ok, I'll bite
Remember, a 17 yr old figured this out. So can you.

Hint: would it be legal for a jump plane to take off and climb up, then dive and buzz someone standing in the middle of a field? Why not?
Ah...
602.14 (b) in circumstances other than those referred to in paragraph (a), at a distance less than 500 feet from any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.
So when the skydiver initially jumps out, he's less than 500' from you. Would this not also outlaw tight formation flying?

That's an interesting take on the regs, clearly an oversight by the writers -- one I must admit that I might have made myself. But in a tribunal or courtroom, I would argue that the regulations that refer specifically to skydiving (602.25 and 602.26) trump the general terms of this one. DItto for formation flying (602.24).
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Re: Question on night VFR currency (recency?)

Post by erics2b »

Av_Av wrote: So when the skydiver initially jumps out, he's less than 500' from you. Would this not also outlaw tight formation flying?
602.14 (b) in circumstances other than those referred to in paragraph (a), at a distance less than 500 feet from any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.
By not explicitly stating that said persons are external to the aircraft, it outlaws all flying.
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