Sunwing at it again!

[justsay'n]

So its official, the Sunwing Summer flying bid is out!

Look at the numbers! The company must be operating a completely bi-lateral agreement with what their offering their pilots this summer.

200 foreigners entered Canada this winter to fly Canadian registered aircraft as stated in many of the threads here. But the company has done one better! 7 Capt and 7 FO’s across 3 foreign deployments, (and furthermore all C reg)

So 14 * 3 = 42 Canadians for full deployments. But lets be fair, Let us argue that they all choose half deployments. So 42 * 2 = 84 Canadians.

Your right! is very Bi-lateral. 200 Foreigners to 84 Canadians. In fact they dont even have 200 pilots to send across (only 150 on staff).

I’m also impressed with the job ad for contract pilots, to little to late. A LMO (Labour Market Opinion) requires posting a job ad BEFORE you issue work visas and lie to the government

Again, How is this legal?

[justwork]

Lisa Raitt:

307 Confederation Building
House of Commons
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6
Tel: (613) 996-7046
Fax: (613) 992-0851
RaittL@parl.gc.ca

[twinpratts]

Next.

[.......]

Next.

So you're basically saying to all hopeful Canadian pilots bend over and shut up?

Only in Canada...

[twinpratts]

LOL, no but in light of their questionable hiring practices, would you want to work there anyway?
My point was this is hardly newsworthy...

[richardhead]

Funny. Nobody bitched when Westjet used American pilots during their infancy. I guess Americans aren't considered foreign.

[True North]

Funny. Nobody bitched when Westjet used American pilots during their infancy. I guess Americans aren't considered foreign.

Are you suggesting WS hired American pilots?

[sanjet]

Funny. Nobody bitched when Westjet used American pilots during their infancy. I guess Americans aren't considered foreign.

Sunwing is no longer in their Infancy.

[teacher]

Funny. Nobody bitched when Westjet used American pilots during their infancy. I guess Americans aren't considered foreign.

Are you suggesting WS hired American pilots?

Yes, last year to fly a '57 and this year they've hired/Wet leased from the U.K.

[Localizer]

It doesn't matter if its Sunwing, WestJet, Air Canada, Jazz, Canjet or Transat ... no foreign pilots ... period.

Also my sympathies go out to all the AME's at Aveo's, AC gave you a raw deal .. and the writting was on the wall from the onset. I wish the media would quit worrying about 12 Air Canada pilots that booked off sick and report some real news. Say a bunch of skill engineers out of a job in favour of foreign labour at the cost of $2.00 per hour! Or Canadian pilot jobs, on Canadian soil going to foreign workers?

To me, that's real news .. not stories about families waiting an extra 4 hours to get home from Disney World.

[.......]

It doesn't matter if its Sunwing, WestJet, Air Canada, Jazz, Canjet or Transat ... no foreign pilots ... period.

...Or Canadian pilot jobs, on Canadian soil going to foreign workers?

To me, that's real news .. not stories about families waiting an extra 4 hours to get home from Disney World.

This site is in its infancy, but I know the people behind it are working very hard to get the ball rolling and more content will be posted very soon.

http://www.cocap.ca/

[True North]

Funny. Nobody bitched when Westjet used American pilots during their infancy. I guess Americans aren't considered foreign.

Are you suggesting WS hired American pilots?

Yes, last year to fly a '57 and this year they've hired/Wet leased from the U.K.

WestJet has never "hired" foreign pilots. On a couple of occasions they have done a short term wet lease of a foreign a/c. Distinctly different.

[buzzjob]

If you think that it is different you have your head stuck deep in the koolaid pitcher my friend!
There is no reason why WS could not dry lease the aircraft, train a handful of WS pilots to fly for 6 months...that is essentially what Jazz does.

[True North]

If you think that it is different you have your head stuck deep in the koolaid pitcher my friend!
There is no reason why WS could not dry lease the aircraft, train a handful of WS pilots to fly for 6 months...that is essentially what Jazz does.

Actually there is a very good reason they could not do that - they would lose money. But I guess that doesn't matter to you, as long as you get a job. Except your job would last for 4 or 5 months and then you'd be out of work and since the whole venture lost money, you are now eating into the bottom line so less profit sharing for everyone, lower stock price for your ESP and less money in the bank for your next round of negotiations for your contract renewal. But that's all okay because they employed a couple of Canadian pilots for 4 months.

Excellent business strategy. Where did you get your business degree?

[buzzjob]

So once again, it is ok for Westjet to do it, but not Sunwing or Canjet or whoever??

[av8tor_assrope]

C'mon really? Let's be fair here. What WestJet is doing is the exact same thing as what Sunwing and Canjet are doing, just on a smaller scale. WestJet should be painted with the same foreign pilot brush because after all like you said True North, WestJet is looking after their bottom line just like Sunwing and Canjet is.

[True North]

So once again, it is ok for Westjet to do it, but not Sunwing or Canjet or whoever??

Where, in any of my posts did I say it was okay for anyone? I initially asked for clarification because it was stated that WS "hired" foreign pilots. It was then pointed out that they didn't actually hire anyone they just did a wet lease - which is NOT the same thing.

But since you asked, there is a big difference between what WestJet, Sunwing and Canjet are doing. An airline can not operate one airplane of a different type and make a profit, you need the economies of scale. WS leased one a/c of a different type to fly a mission that their NG fleet can not do profitably. In your mind, they should be forced to use Canadian pilots on the a/c. Since there were no Canadian registered and crewed 757s available their choice was to hire a foreign a/c and crew, or not do it. You seem to feel that they shouldn't do it at all then. Why? If they didn't do it there still would be no additional jobs for Canadian pilots but by doing it, which is entirely legal BTW, they added to their bottom line and I'm told actually increased the block hours they fly on their NG fleet, which in the end might result in requiring additional crew.

If I understand correctly, Canjet and Sunwing will be leasing the same type of a/c that they already operate - that is entirely different. Even if they were using a different type, the numbers they are talking probably do reach the scale that would make it feasible to train their own crews.

[buzzjob]

A wet lease with Canadian crews would be considered not hiring foreign crews...a wet lease with foreign crews would be considered hiring foreign crews. I do not know how one can justify a foreign crewed wet lease as not being the same as hiring foreign crews.

The last time I checked Morningstar, Cargojet, and Jazz all operate Canadian reg'd 757s. How hard would it be to get a 6 month dry lease on a 757 by any of these companies??

The major stumbling block in the seasonal charter market is simply not having enough flying in the off season to train sufficient new hire (initial type rating) pilots to crew the busy 4 months. CJ is slowly getting to the point where seasonal pilots will not be required. We have been and continue to hire initial type rated permanent positions to fully crew the winter, with lots of sitting around in the summer. Great for the pilots, not so great for training and scheduling when you can't even keep everyone current (take offs and landings).

The thing that really bothers me (and its not the justification of foreign crewed wet lease) is that SW is blatantly abusing the system. I have heard that they will be increasing their seasonal fleet even more for next season (high 20s). With no flying in the summer to train, I can only start guessing how many more foreign pilots they will need!! You though 200 was bad, just wait! The only thing that this is accomplishing is over-saturating an already low yielding market to the point that nobody wins.

[727driver]

True North: Obviously the colour of the sky in your world is teal and you have been convinced by the mob that contracting foreign carriers to operate their own metal on WJ flights originating from Canada to destinations that are not domestic to themselves is ok. Well I hate to tell you but management redrew the line in the sand at WJ and you guys let the genie out of the bottle. Your Execs have set a very dangerous precedent when it comes Westjets corporate policy in this matter. If WJ pilots cannot do it cost effectively enough than we will outsource. I believe if you can't compete than don't play. You are not doing any service to the stability of the industry by going in and mucking it up for everyone else. What is happening in our industry should alarm every pilot who has a career or is thinking of a career as a pilot in Canada. It was bad enough to see good paying manufacturing jobs leave the country and having a negative impact on a once healthy middle class but now we are seeing good paying career jobs being outsourced right under our noses to foreign labour operating within our own borders. This takes the outsourcing issue to a whole new level. Outsourcing Canadian flying positions to foreign labour is slowing becoming the accepted norm. Even Air Canada is considering the outsourcing the flying of their planned LCC to foreign crews. So as you can see the scope of these actions are limitless. You think its ok and good for the bottom line and that may be true but there is collateral damage with these actions. I wonder if you will still feel the same about the bottom line when WJ wetleases wide bodies to start their overseas program. Have fun watching companies like Euro Atlantic, Omni, Atlas, Air Italy taxi by with their 767's while you complete your 3rd of 5 sectors from YVR to YYC. If there is an issue that will affect all of our careers it is this one. That is why all pilots across Canada should collectively draw a line in the sand and say NO MORE! It does't matter what the colour of the sky is in your world whether teal,red,blue,orange..There is strength in numbers.

Big picture buddy!

[Realitychex]

True North: Obviously the colour of the sky in your world is teal and you have been convinced by the mob that contracting foreign carriers to operate their own metal on WJ flights originating from Canada to destinations that are not domestic to themselves is ok. Well I hate to tell you but management redrew the line in the sand at WJ and you guys let the genie out of the bottle. Your Execs have set a very dangerous precedent when it comes Westjets corporate policy in this matter. If WJ pilots cannot do it cost effectively enough than we will outsource. I believe if you can't compete than don't play. You are not doing any service to the stability of the industry by going in and mucking it up for everyone else. What is happening in our industry should alarm every pilot who has a career or is thinking of a career as a pilot in Canada. It was bad enough to see good paying manufacturing jobs leave the country and having a negative impact on a once healthy middle class but now we are seeing good paying career jobs being outsourced right under our noses to foreign labour operating within our own borders. This takes the outsourcing issue to a whole new level. Outsourcing Canadian flying positions to foreign labour is slowing becoming the accepted norm. Even Air Canada is considering the outsourcing the flying of their planned LCC to foreign crews. So as you can see the scope of these actions are limitless. You think its ok and good for the bottom line and that may be true but there is collateral damage with these actions. I wonder if you will still feel the same about the bottom line when WJ wetleases wide bodies to start their overseas program. Have fun watching companies like Euro Atlantic, Omni, Atlas, Air Italy taxi by with their 767's while you complete your 3rd of 5 sectors from YVR to YYC. If there is an issue that will affect all of our careers it is this one. That is why all pilots across Canada should collectively draw a line in the sand and say NO MORE! It does't matter what the colour of the sky is in your world whether teal,red,blue,orange..There is strength in numbers.

Big picture buddy!

The big picture is that if a business does not return the cost of capital, it is not a business and is not sustainable.

There are very few airlines in Canada where pilots can be exceedingly confident they'll stay employed at the same company at the same or higher rates than their current situation. That's important if you want to work your way into the left seat in a timely fashion.

You can be very confident that WJ will eventually fix their long range aircraft issue. However, they are smart enought not to bite off too much at one time. They are focussing on the 70 seat market over the next 4-5 years in order to further minimize the risk of delving into the 250 seat / 7,500 mile range marketplace down the road.

The bottom line is WJX be hiring the better part of 450 Canadian pilots for the WJX product over the next 4-5 years, over and above regular hiring at the mainline.

[.......]

The big picture is that if a business does not return the cost of capital, it is not a business and is not sustainable.

The bigger picture is that folks are still expecting to pay 1975 fares for their airline tickets and some companies are willingly caving in to that nonsense... but in order to make it work, they have to use "less than fair" practices, let's say...

How can you justify that it costs less than $1100 for 3 persons for an all-inclusive week stay in Cuba? That is beyond me...

[True North]

True North: Obviously the colour of the sky in your world is teal and you have been convinced by the mob that contracting foreign carriers to operate their own metal on WJ flights originating from Canada to destinations that are not domestic to themselves is ok. Well I hate to tell you but management redrew the line in the sand at WJ and you guys let the genie out of the bottle. Your Execs have set a very dangerous precedent when it comes Westjets corporate policy in this matter. If WJ pilots cannot do it cost effectively enough than we will outsource. I believe if you can't compete than don't play. You are not doing any service to the stability of the industry by going in and mucking it up for everyone else. What is happening in our industry should alarm every pilot who has a career or is thinking of a career as a pilot in Canada. It was bad enough to see good paying manufacturing jobs leave the country and having a negative impact on a once healthy middle class but now we are seeing good paying career jobs being outsourced right under our noses to foreign labour operating within our own borders. This takes the outsourcing issue to a whole new level. Outsourcing Canadian flying positions to foreign labour is slowing becoming the accepted norm. Even Air Canada is considering the outsourcing the flying of their planned LCC to foreign crews. So as you can see the scope of these actions are limitless. You think its ok and good for the bottom line and that may be true but there is collateral damage with these actions. I wonder if you will still feel the same about the bottom line when WJ wetleases wide bodies to start their overseas program. Have fun watching companies like Euro Atlantic, Omni, Atlas, Air Italy taxi by with their 767's while you complete your 3rd of 5 sectors from YVR to YYC. If there is an issue that will affect all of our careers it is this one. That is why all pilots across Canada should collectively draw a line in the sand and say NO MORE! It does't matter what the colour of the sky is in your world whether teal,red,blue,orange..There is strength in numbers.

Big picture buddy!

Colour of the sky in my world? Really? What is this, high school? If you want to have a debate 727driver, grow up and leave the puerile comments for the playground. If you think that adds something to your argument or makes you look clever, you're sadly mistaken. If you're trying to insult me you'll have to do a helluva lot better than that.

Let's clear something else up; I do not now, nor have I ever worked for WestJet. I am very happily retired after an extremely rewarding career, the bulk of which was spent in corporate aviation - 17 years of which was managing a corporate flight department with a fleet that included a BBJ. I point this out only to emphasize the point that I have pretty firm grip on what it costs to acquire and operate aircraft. Although I have some very good friends working at WestJet, I also have friends at Air Canada, Transat, Canjet etc so I am a thoroughly unbiased observer. That said, I am a fan of WestJet because they are that extremely rare animal, a Canadian Aviation success story.

There is a very fundamental fact that you and many others on this forum are unable, or unwilling to grasp so let me make it real simple for you. Airlines are a business. They exist for one reason and one reason only - to MAKE MONEY. This is not Cuba or North Korea, airlines don't exist to provide jobs or guarantee you a career. One thing that the WestJet pilots seem to understand that you don't is that if the company is profitable, they will profit. Put even more simply, if it's good for the company, it's good for them. If the company is not profitable it doesn't matter a whit what you think you are worth because as soon as the company is worthless, so are you. Air Canada pilots are learning this the hard way right now. As I pointed out in my previous post, an airline can not operate one aircraft, and that's what we're talking about here, one aircraft of a different type - that's a guaranteed money loser. So in your idealistic mind, they shouldn't operate it at all even if they can do it profitably via wet lease. That is where the WestJet pilots are ahead of you. They understand it is good for the company so it's good for them and as Realitychex pointed out, that will help lead them to creating a whole new subsidiary which will create hundreds of new jobs. It has also been pointed out that the wet leased 757 freed up an NG to do more efficient flying which increased the block hours and results in a need for more crews. So no Canadian pilots are disadvantaged by this arrangement, in fact they profit.

You claim they have set a dangerous precedent and will have to sit by and watch when WestJet gets bigger iron and staffs them "overseas". Educate yourself. It has been posted all over the place, any larger equipment will be added to the WestJet OC and will be flown by WestJet pilots. That was included in the LOU the pilots signed to give the new venture their blessing.

The Sunwing/Canjet deal is a completely different animal and is quite frankly despicable. As I stated before, they are using the same type a/c so there is no excuse not to use their own crews.

[jjj]

Anything to add 27 Driver?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

What prevents a Canadian Airline that has only 6 full time B-737, to temporarily dry lease (11) and wet lease (6) 18 additional B-737s, for a total of 23 aircraft, and crew all of them with foreign crews?

What prevents that same airline that has no long range or wide-bodied aircraft to just wet lease a few of them every summer ?

It seems that there is no Canadian Law or Regulation that prevents this. Correct me if I am wrong.

The short haul season in Europe is the opposite from Canada's. It's in the summer that European tourists flock to nearby Mediterranean and Red Sea destinations. In the winter, long haul aircraft are needed, to take tourists to places like the Caribbean, tropical Africa (Kenya), to the Indian Ocean or to Thailand and Bali.

So in Europe, in the winter, there are many idle or underutilized short haul aircraft, along with their pilots, and in the summer, there are many underutilized long haul aircraft with their pilots..

This allows the owners of these aircraft to do, what is called in the commercial world, "dumping" on Canada with their under-utilized aircraft and pilots. Had we been talking about wheat or flour, there would be mechanisms to block it. But we are talking about aircraft and pilots.......

[727driver]

This ones for you JJJ. I too agree that airlines need to be in the business to make money. However, with ever decreasing yields due to rising operating costs and capacity being dumped into the market as companies bid for more market share, management is struggling to keep their competative advantage. Unless AC/WJ/AT/CJ/SW dig can their own well and refine their own oil or design and build their own aircraft/airport or ATC system the only thing that is in their direct control is labour costs. Because of this fact it is forcing execs to become more creative in their approach to operating. However using cheap foreign labour is not a new concept; but using foreign skilled labour domestically when there is an ample supply of skilled workers within your own country is. If SWG is allowed to continue the practice of dumping seasonal damp/wet leases to staturate the market during peak seasons how long do you think it will be before other carriers will be forced to adopt the same strategy in order to remain competative. SWG does this because they cannot sustain the traffic year round with their current business model. If that is so than live with the market share you can support and stop driving yields down during the months when everyone should be making $$$. WJ has brought in wet leases because the 73 is not competitive on the YYC to Hawaii sector. If that is so than either get the equipment and crew it yourself or stay out of the market. TUI has 75's as well in Europe and there is nothing stopping them from sending those over here as well for SWG to smash that route to hell as well. Not so nice is it when the shoe could be on the other foot. Credit to TC/Jazz, atleast the 75's that come over are Cdn crewed front and back. One only needs to look at the history of the North American manufacturing industry to see that once a competitor moves production off shore to take advantage of cheap labour it is only a matter of time before you either follow suit to stay in the game or bow out before you lose everything. The only difference in our industry is that the labour is being dumped into Canada and our disfunctional Federal labour minister is doing nothing about it. It may not be evident at WJ now but I would be careful to pontificate that it would never happen. LOU's are not worth the paper their printed on these days. Just ask the employees of AC and AT, they can tell you. WJ is still a young operation however as the the mean seniority level rises there will be ever increasing pressure to control these costs to maintain its competitive advantage. You can bet every option will be on the table. Everyone should see these corporate strategies like a Master Warning because the practice of wet/damp leases is quickly changing from becoming an isolated exception to standard accepted practice which will only further destabalize and already volitile industry. Those who choose not to learn from mistakes made in the past are dammed to repeat them.