Cargojet Second Officer Position

[BWIA330]

Hey guys,

I have a few questions in regards to Cargojet and the second officer position on the 727. Now I know you cannot log this time however I have heard that guys have gotten into Cargojet with 250 hours TT. Recently heard they have hired under 1000 HRS. Is this true? So my question is what is the upgrade time from SO to FO? Also I assume you must write the IATRA to fly SO on the 727? Any recent info on Cargojet would be appreciated.

[doorhandle27]

Five years ago the minimum time for getting on at cargojet was between 2000-2500 hours with turbine and pic time in the mix. Today the requirements are 250 hrs and a diploma from Seneca college. Recent upgrade times have been less than a year I believe. Pretty good progression but it comes at a cost.

When I joined 5 years ago, 12 guys were in my groundschool. Today only 1 remains. When I resigned last year I was amongst the 25% of crew members that have quit in the last 18 months. People continue to leave to this days, captains included. When several captains leave for fo position elsewhere it raises eyebrows, no?

Cj now hires low time people to staff the back and eventually the right seat. Pretty good opportunity? Depends. With the amount of hiring that's happened in the past year, cj has managed to replace all of the experienced crews with low time pilots with the goal of increasing retention rates. It works, lower time folks will have a harder time finding employment elsewhere and like the jet flying. As such you will no doubt see a log jam in upgrades coEming soon and the rate of time to upgrade will come to a grinding halt. With cj s business in a state of decline, just talking financial, growth has come to a grinding halt. Combine these two issues and I would think twice about taking a back seat with low time. You may very well see yourself sitting in said seat for years.

That said, do a little research here and take heed on what people say, it's a poorly managed place. There are ample jobs out there that would place you on a better career than cj. Dont let the name Boeing tempt you, you'll fly nicer jets down the road, be patient.

[BWIA330]

Hey,

Thanks for the heads up. I am a low timer and was thinking about this route but you opened my eyes to another perspective. It's tempting to go this route especially with low time. I'm not having the best luck trying to find an entry level position anywhere with tons of resumes sent out. But I will keep on trying, something will eventually have to come up. Did you have to write the IATRA to work as SO?

[Krimson]

I believe you would require the IATRA. You should get it done regardless though, for $30, 50 questions, there's not reason not to.

This is all second hand information, but they are taking guys right out of Seneca College, quite a few of them too. I believe 3 or 4 batches of them went there so far. Only one has been upgraded to FO in a year and a few months. The rest are still waiting. Joining now would add your name to the bottom of a pretty long list, it could be a few years in the back. They are sent down to Texas for training I believe, few months, then up to Hamilton to work night shifts. You would be sitting in the back for an unknown amount of time, and not log a single hour. In this time, you could build a solid resume flying elsewhere. Once you upgrade, you would have to stick around for quite some time to gain marketable experience, unfortunately no PIC. It may seem like a good gig to start with, but you may be an FO for life taking this path. Also, if CJ upgrades their 727s, the guys in the back are SOL.

[doorhandle27]

Pretty much bang on, Krimson. There are a lot of jobs out there these days, just gotta bang on some doors. You'll be much better off with a King Air or Hoe job logging some time towards an upgrade. The couple that have recently been upgraded at CJ are still riding in the back seat, thus keeping the time in the book down.

Ya you need the IATRA, like K said, it's easy to get and costs nothing. A day or two of study, bang it off and it'll look good on your res.

Good luck!

[short bus]

You don't need the IATRA to be an S/O

[Chaxterium]

Just had a look in the CARs. Can't find anything stating you need the IATRA to hold a SO rating so pretty sure Short Bus is right.

DIVISION XV - SECOND OFFICER RATING

421.52 Requirements

(1) Knowledge/Experience

An applicant shall provide evidence of having successfully completed a Second Officer training program during the 12 months preceding the date of application.

(2) Skill

An applicant shall provide the report of a Second Officer proficiency check conducted during the 12 months preceding the date of application in the aeroplane type or approved aeroplane type simulator to be endorsed on the licence.

NOTE:

A Second Officer Rating does not, in itself, convey any pilot privileges upon the licence holder.

Whereas if you compare it to the requirements for a type rating it specifically mentions the IATRA.

(3) Individual Type Rating Requirements

(a) Aeroplane - Two Crew

(i) Knowledge

An applicant for an individual aircraft type rating for aeroplanes with a minimum flight crew requirement of at least two pilots shall have completed a program of ground school instruction and flight training on the aeroplane type, and
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane or Commercial Pilot Licence-Aeroplane

(A) in the case of the holder of a Private Pilot Licence-Aeroplane or Commercial Pilot Licence-Aeroplane, within the 24 months preceding the application for the first endorsement of the two crew rating, an applicant shall have obtained a minimum score of 70 percent (70%) on the Type Rating-Aeroplane (IATRA) written examination;
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

Cheers,
Chax

[doorhandle27]

The company requires it.

[peice]

I graduated Seneca last year and about six guys from my class got the job at CJ, with about another six or so from the previous year. I keep in contact with the guys from my class and they're having a good time but as others have said there are other jobs out there that would be better. Some guys want to be lifelong FO's and others don't... it all depends in what you want. Cheers

[ahramin]

First question should be: What's the pay?

[Magnetron]

I graduated Seneca last year and about six guys from my class got the job at CJ, with about another six or so from the previous year. I keep in contact with the guys from my class and they're having a good time but as others have said there are other jobs out there that would be better. Some guys want to be lifelong FO's and others don't... it all depends in what you want. Cheers

You're assuming that these guys who chose CJ WANTS to be lifelong FO's. And second, why would choosing CJ even mean being lifelong FO's?

[traveller123]

After how long usually you can expect to upgrade from SO to Captain when you work for this company? 10 years? 20 years?

[WASIE]

First question should be: What's the pay?

They pay $500 !

[flapoperator]

IATRA is NOT required. It is not a Company requirement nor TC. Go fly an airplane.... any kind. Instruct if you have to, it will be years before the bottom guys get upgraded, if ever.

[doorhandle27]

Not surprised they don't want an IATRA anymore, they don't want anything other than a cpl and a heartbeat. What a f-ing joke this company is.

[Doc]

Could be wrong here....but.....I don't think you even NEED a pilot's licence to (legally) be an S/O on a 727? Or a DC8, or a 707. or an L1011......

Actually, I can name three guys I know personally, who used to work as S/O's, who have never held a pilot's licence of any kind.

[Doc]

First question should be: What's the pay?

More likely it"s......."How much money should I cough up for the job....?"

[Pratt X 3]

Could be wrong here....but.....I don't think you even NEED a pilot's licence to (legally) be an S/O on a 727? Or a DC8, or a 707. or an L1011......

Actually, I can name three guys I know personally, who used to work as S/O's, who have never held a pilot's licence of any kind.

Sure they weren't Flight Engineers? A Second Officer rating needs a CPL or ATPL.

401.52 The Minister shall endorse the following licences with a second officer rating if the applicant for the rating meets the requirements referred to in Section 401.06:
(a) commercial pilot licence - aeroplane; and
(b) airline transport pilot licence - aeroplane.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... htm#401_52

More likely it"s......."How much money should I cough up for the job....?"

As far as I know, there is no money or bond to "play the piano" at Cargojet; you just pay with your soul as you slowly become "The Flying Dead".

[Doc]

PrattX3...they were indeed flight engineers. Methinks the position of S/O is becoming pretty much a thing of the past? Some airlines using cruise pilots, refer to them as "second officers", but that's a whole different animal. The guys I know used to be on DC8's. Even the old DC8's I've most recently (must I define "recent") have been converted to two crew. Cheers

[Oxi]

What is the current hiring for FO & SO with Cargojet?

oxi

[Pratt X 3]

Doc...its the other way around. FE's are a rare breed now. That's because they earn more than a S/O. FE's can (usually) fix the plane while the S/O is just qualified to run the panel.

[Oxi]

Again, just looking for current information on the FO & SO positions.

oxi

[Masters Off]

Some food for thought.
When I was a 702 Chief Pilot, at a smaller company (day, VFR aircraft) we used to get resumes from KFC, CargoJet and the like with guys who were S/O's, F/O's needing the PIC time to obtain the ATPL or to get into the left seat. Guys who'd been in the industry for years. Elsewhere, an instructor of mine worked at one of those companies at night, instructed by day (when he could).

[doorhandle27]

Oxi, honestly, don't bother, that place is a shit hole, just ask the 20+ guys that have left in the last 1.5 years, including senior captains and the old CP.

[200Above]

92K for a '27 Skipper? Brutal