BONDS and PRESSURE

[Doc]

Lets look at this bond issue so close to my heart for a moment.
I'd like to hear from you if you feel a bond adds any pressure to the go/no go decision.
Just thinking, do any of you feel. "If I don't go, I could be fired, and end up owing stacks of cash to my employer..."?
I can see some operators feeling the urge to push you, because, after all is said and done. if you quit or they fire your sorry ass, they get all that money. They know this. You know this. Have any of you had it used against you as a tool to influence your better judgement?
Even if you've "felt" that pressure, real or perceived, it exists on some level. Especially for younger pilots.
Thoughts?
Just had a guy on a different thread ask if the pilot's decisions were respected. Are yours?

[shimmydampner]

Quite the opposite. I haven't had many employers that pressured much at all. I usually pressured myself more. The only employer I have ever really been strongly pressured by, I was not bonded for. I left there for a job that does bond. Since then, I have only been pressured to make the safest decisions possible. The go/no go decision is always up to me and is never questioned. And I am a coward these days.

[flyinthebug]

Im not sure there is any connection here Doc..at least as far as the younger/inexperienced are concerned. Usually it is the young FO that gets stuck with the bond issue...and as we know, he isnt making any go/no-go decisions. Therefore, I am not clear how a bond would affect a young co-pilot in an adverse way?

Now if you are talking about a bond for a Skipper position, then it becomes a very valid question.

I was fortunate enough to avoid bonds throughout my career. I came close to signing one once on the B1900D at Wasaya, but talked DM into waiving it So I have little input on this topic.

Im curious to hear if any bonded Captains out there feel the pressure Doc is talking about though?

Fly safe all.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Having put myself in the position of having a bond at one point in my career, I can definitely say NO, it did not pressure me at any point. I can tell you this, the bond I had was probably written by the head of proctology at Cedar Sinai Hospital too. If anything, I felt it encouraged me to not be pressured because if I had been dismissed due to me taking a stand for safety and a bond was involved, I felt I may have had a leg to stand on, legally speaking.

[KK7]

Fortunately I have never felt any significant pressure from an employer, and my final decisions have always been respected. That isn't to say there hasn't been discussion about decisions, but once the decision was made, there were no further questions or issues.

Having worked in the framework of two bonds, one was a promissory note, the other was the VAL money in a GIC in trust at the bank, I have never seen the contract that defines the rules of the training bond to be set up in such a manner that what you mention becomes a factor. In both cases I was a salaried employee, and in both cases the contract specified that the money would only go to the company if I left on my own accord, or was fired due to some form of negligence on my part. Being laid off or fired with no cause meant I kept the money. I think if they fired someone claiming that they were negligent, they open themselves up to outside scrutiny, and it would be a risky thing for a company to do based on not respecting valid decisions on the pilot's part.

This being said I have no doubt that there are many bonds out there with insufficient documentation to define the rules. I strongly recommend a carefully analysed contract, and if any exchange of funds are involved, that a third party is used to hold said funds in trust, like a bank.

[Eric Janson]

I have been bonded twice - once for the 737 and once for the A340. In both cases I would only be required to pay if I left before the bond expired. The company would not be entitled to anything if they fired me.

Never felt any pressure of any kind.

I am fortunate to work for an Airline where Pilots are still treated like Professionals. I never hear anything from anyone about any decisions I make, including go-arounds or diversions.

They've stopped bonding here as well.

The only time I have ever been called was when there was a question whether I had taken off below limits. I explained how I had calculated my limits. The Chief Pilot said "I would have done the same". Never heard another word.

Things are far from perfect here but a lot of things are being done correctly.

[ant_321]

Currently in a bond now now. If I get canned I walk away owning nothing.

[Beefitarian]

I have been bonded twice - once for the 737 and once for the A340.

I have a question. Is there a big difference between those planes and two years HO? I would think a bond for them seems a little more attractive as they're kind of like "made it" planes in most people's opinion.

[Changes in Latitudes]

I would think a bond for them seems a little more attractive as they're kind of like "made it" planes in most people's opinion.

There's definitely no such thing as a "made it" plane, only "made it" lifestyles. Funny enough, those "made it" lifestyles are bonded by handshake only.

[Beefitarian]

I think you're right.

I agree, to generalize bonds are bad and a good job flying a plane you don't love would be better than a bad job flying your dream plane but most people probably don't.

Flying the large passenger jet used to be the "made it" lifestyle wasn't it?

I'm not in any position to know. I'm just thinking at the end of a bond I would rather have a resume with time and rating on a 737 than a King Air. I think I should be able to get at least more money after two years when I can look for another job if nothing else. Also if a great job flying a C-337 comes up later I should be more attractive no?

[Rowdy]

Someone said it best.. Chase lifestyle.. not tin!

[KK7]

Someone said it best.. Chase lifestyle.. not tin!

It's not always so black and white.

Sometimes you have to chase tin to get to the lifestyle you want. Most of us who have made it into the lifestyle we want, had to chase tin at some point.

[Doc]

Someone said it best.. Chase lifestyle.. not tin!

It's not always so black and white.

Sometimes you have to chase tin to get to the lifestyle you want. Most of us who have made it into the lifestyle we want, had to chase tin at some point.

Chasing tin is pretty normal for the younger guys. I've chased tin for a while, then something came along that had me ask the question: What in the Hell is wrong with doing what I'm doing, where I'm doing it?
First job I had that provided me with the lifestyle that I was really happy with was an F27 night freight gig. Two weeks on, one week off, with all weekends off. My ass was planted. Company went under and I wandered around, never being "happy" with what I was doing, like a ship without a rudder, for many years. Sure, I had the odd hoot along the way, but I was always "looking"....
Found it now.
The trick is.......realize what you've got when you get it.
KK7, is correct....it's not black and white. It's definitely grey. But at some point you'll find it! We have a couple of young guys right here, that, while most their age are hounding the "big guys", our guys "GET IT". Yes, the big guys pay more....but not that much more, for many years.
After tax, in you jeans, take home pay.....do your homework, before you give up your life to a big shiny kerosine sucking machine.

[Liquid Charlie]

Training bonds come in different shapes and sizes - from the AC/Jazz "formula pay" to self purchased endorsements, signed "hold no water" contracts to the iron clad bank loan paid down by the employer unless you quit.

For airline who can offer a "career" -- bonds become less of a requirement but for that little commuter single type it is well known that most will bail at a moments notice if that better job appears -- so I can certainly sympathize with carriers that turn into a revolving door -- training costs and time taken to qualify and fill the void becomes staggering. It is very obvious that when someone leaves a company after a short time that they never stopped looking for a job and had no intention of working long enough to offset costs -- it becomes a perpetual motion machine -- so while training bonds truly suck I can see why there exist.

Back to the initial subject - yes certainly there can be pressure due to the training bond - sitting in the right seat watching so idiot break CARS - operate too close to the "edge" and just plain scare the living sh1t out of you -- what protection do you have and quitting is not a good option ------ unless and a word to all -- take that proposed training bond and have it modified to protect you as well -- a simple statement saying any violation of CARS by the company or another crew member will void the bond -- it will require some semblance of sticking together - at the end of the day we are our own worst enemies --

If companies still use the pilot in bondage - slave labour -- pilot "wantabe" system the bondage time should be acknowledged as a credit towards training costs -- most of those cheap bastards won't even help maintain license and IFR -- companies do bully this group on the ramp and later when they start flying -- training bonds from day of initial airplane training, in this case are morally wrong and should be based on date of hire.

After tax, in you jeans, take home pay.....do your homework

I recently retired - moved back home after maintaining 2 addresses for years -- took a 80% pay cut with a new job and have as much money in my jeans as I did then -- life is great

[oldtimer]

I was involved with the bonding issue many years ago and IMHO, the whole mess started when pilots were type rating shopping. Get typed and PPC'd on an airplane and then leave for a more desirable job/lifestyle with a company that only hired trained pilots. I have seen pilots get typed on an airplane and leave shortly. One case was two months, one case was a couple of weeks and the worst was one guy who quit walking away from the checkride.
Some problems arrise because of unprincipled employees.
Some problems arrise because of unprincipled employers.
Do your homework before you sign the bond.
IMHO, if things become intolerable, there are resources available to assist. An employer cannot take the law into their own hands. If untoward pressures are put on an employee, discuss the problem. If the problem cannot be resolved, quit, but make sure you have kept your part of the bargain. (But look for another job before you quit).

[habs.fan]

There is a company I know of (in this hemisphere!) that does the whole "work the ramp for us for free for two weeks and then we'll pay you minimum wage to work the ramp for 6 months or a year and then maybe one day you might get to be a dispatcher...our last dispatcher went on to be a first officer on a king air! (at 22K/year)." Same company requires a 5-10hr check for all new pilots on a RG single...even for those with RG experience...
Now imagine the 250-hr wonder who goes through all this and then buys himself a check on this RG single, paying about 2000$ once it's all said and done...is he going to feel pressure once he's in the pilot seat? Obviously 2000 beans isn't a fortune, but for a young starving pilot it could mean a loan from a bank or the parents, and then if the company starts twisting his arm to take off with iffy weather or W&B or risky deferred defects...or maybe just one of these things...he never signed a bond, but he's probably feeling the pressure big time. And of course if he doesn't do it, a swift kick of the wastebasket will pop 5 new 250-hr pilot resumes on the chief pilot's desk...
I can't say myself, but I feel like at a company like this I would feel the pressure before I even started flying with them, and more so than if I had simply signed a bond saying that my check was paid by the company but I owed them 12-24 months of service.

[godsrcrazy]

Someone said it best.. Chase lifestyle.. not tin!

It's not always so black and white.

Sometimes you have to chase tin to get to the lifestyle you want. Most of us who have made it into the lifestyle we want, had to chase tin at some point.

Chasing Tin is one of the biggest reasons there are bonds. It really doesn't matter wether you are flying a HO or a 737 someone spent money training you in hopes you will stay for a period of time. There are many in this industry that jump ship the minute they get a better offer from others. It doesn't matter in some cases if it is $1,000.00 a year more or a bigger and better plane they jump. On the Ice pilots forum a while back they talked about the guy that took an upgrade and within day's of doing so he left for greener pastures at First air. It is my understanding that within a few months of completing his training there this same individual left First air to go to Air Canada. Now we can all scratch are head and wonder why are we getting training bonds pushed on us.

[KK7]

Chasing Tin is one of the biggest reasons there are bonds. It really doesn't matter wether you are flying a HO or a 737 someone spent money training you in hopes you will stay for a period of time. There are many in this industry that jump ship the minute they get a better offer from others. It doesn't matter in some cases if it is $1,000.00 a year more or a bigger and better plane they jump. On the Ice pilots forum a while back they talked about the guy that took an upgrade and within day's of doing so he left for greener pastures at First air. It is my understanding that within a few months of completing his training there this same individual left First air to go to Air Canada. Now we can all scratch are head and wonder why are we getting training bonds pushed on us.

"Chasing Tin" doesn't mean someone has to be an idiot about it. There are many operators out there who don't have bonds that know that they are a stepping stone to other operators, but expect new hires to stick around for some amount of time. If someone is "chasing tin", that doesn't mean they should leave at their earliest convenience.

Bonds aren't a result of people chasing tin, they are a result of unprofessional pilots with no ethics.

[Doc]

Bonds aren't a result of people chasing tin, they are a result of unprofessional pilots with no ethics.

That's just an excuse. The REAL reason there are bonds, is because pilots keep signing them.

[godsrcrazy]

Bonds aren't a result of people chasing tin, they are a result of unprofessional pilots with no ethics.

That's just an excuse. The REAL reason there are bonds, is because pilots keep signing them.

Doc we can go back and forth on this until the end of time. It is obvious that you have an issue with Bonds as there isn’t a post about a bond that you don’t speak out on and now you start this post. The issue is NOT that pilots keep signing bonds. The issue is that the minute they get a better opportunity they run like rats. I am not sure if my information is correct but the Ice pilots dude is a prime example of why pilots get bonds shoved at them. Over the years I have seen many young people give companies their word that if they get an upgrade they will stay. The ink on the endorsement isn’t even dry when they start sending out their new resume. When you ask them why they say just updating everyone. You ask why are you doing that as you told the owner you will stay. The answer is always the same you never know when something better will pop up. So much for their word. I can go on and on about examples of watching people break their word. I am sure you can go on and on about better working conditions and better pay. The fact is if someone leaves because the working conditions are bad there isn’t a bond in the world that will hold up. The fact is there are not many employers that change their working conditions or drop the pay after you get an upgrade etc. The conditions and pay are usually what they were before the upgrade so why take the upgrade and then blame it on that when you leave.

I think the only thing we will agree on about this topic is we will agree to disagree. As I am certainly not willing to get into it with you on this forum about who is right and who is wrong. It’s a free country and we are entitled to our opinion.

[Doc]

So, you're saying that if pilots refused to sign bonds we'd still have them.
Frikken RIGHT I have an issue with bonds.
As you say yourself, Canada is a free country.
Bonds are indentured servitude. Where's the "freedom"?
In every other industry, employees "run like rats" to a better deal. It's called "freedom"!
The very fact that some pilots actually argue in favor of bonds leaves me shaking my head.
You just don't get it.

[Sidebar]

Poking the bear here.

I enrolled in the Canadian Forces with the understanding that when I completed pilot training to wings standard I would be required to serve an additional five years of obligatory service. There are still lots of applicants wanting to be military pilots, and the obligatory service, IIRC, is now 7 years.

I see little difference between this legal contract between employee and employer and the bonds Doc is so hot under the collar about.

[Doc]

Poking the bear here.

I enrolled in the Canadian Forces with the understanding that when I completed pilot training to wings standard I would be required to serve an additional five years of obligatory service. There are still lots of applicants wanting to be military pilots, and the obligatory service, IIRC, is now 7 years.

I see little difference between this legal contract between employee and employer and the bonds Doc is so hot under the collar about.

Consider the bear poked. You're kidding, right? The quality of training in the military, you cant buy anywhere. You could go through college in engineering, or medicine, dentistry, or a host of different careers with the same deal. Not just as a pilot. Difference is your ENTIRE education is covered for most careers, and in the case of becomming a pilot, ALL your flight training is covered. I'll let the bond issue go when I hear of ONE other industry that uses enslavement like this one. Articaling and being an intern don't count.

[Sidebar]

You're kidding, right?

Nope, not kidding.

I don't think you're doing your argument any favour by calling it "enslavement." These bonds are entered into willingly, and the pilot can walk away from it any time, although at a monetary loss. Hardly enslavement.

On the other hand, I, and many others, was unable to voluntarily leave the military for five years. Additionally, I was expected to comply with orders and subject to legal repercussions under the National Defence Act if I did not comply. I'd say that's a little closer to "enslavement" than any training bond in the industry.

Training bonds were discussed in a recently released TSB report. http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... #sec1.15.3 Unfortunately, they didn't take it all the way to a conclusion about the effect of bonds.

I don't necessarily disagree with you Doc. I think, in some cases, bonds can be and are used to coerce pilots into unsafe behaviour. However, they do have a useful role in ensuring a newly trained and type rated/PPC'd pilot doesn't decide to walk and leave the company out whatever $$$ it cost them to provide the training.

[old_man]

I'll let the bond issue go when I hear of ONE other industry that uses enslavement like this one.

The one thing I can think of is a company making you sign a 'non competition clause'. Basically you agree that if you quit you won't work in the same industry for a year. (i.e. go work for the competitor). However, these things never stand in court as you are essentially depriving someone the ability to work. (or something to that extent)

The only other thing that has come to mind is if your company sends you off/pays for a Master's Degree they may require you to stay for a year or two or else reimburse the cost. I did a bit of googling and it seems every company is different when it comes to this.