Attitudes that lead to accidents

[Rookie50]

Although not about any specific accident, I have noticed as a low time 500 hr - CPL, a certain casualness about flying in some ppls I have observed, some with many many years of experience.

This note is written to the new ppls out there who are committed to becoming a serious student of avaition, even if this is only recreational for you. Treat this seriously, while enjoying the freedom of the sky, at all times.

I suppose my attitude is, while throughly enjoying flying, being in command, improving my skills and taking friends up, is that my aircraft, the winds and weather are trying to kill me if I am inattentive. This is why, even after a brief flight, i visual fuel and oil! -- before every next leg, do a brief inspection before every leg, check mags at least before every leg. ( of course a full run -up before first flight)
I recheck weather and radar each time on the ground before moving on ( on a longer trip) I don't push the weather, and I am on the ground with a least an hour of fuel -- more if in an area without multiple airports.

I don't have NEXRAD, so on longer trips I am calling ahead to flight watch, getting weather, pireps, revised forecasts. The options are there, so surprises do not happen -- at least areas you can get metars anyway.

I use GPS but assume a failure at any time, meaning I always have the vors tuned in along my route -- crucial in IMC. I restrict myself as a single engine, single pilot IFR, not flying professionally daily, to ceilings comfortably above legal minimums.

In the pattern, where so many accidents occur, I dont fly slower than 75 kts, (until final) 80 is minimum with any steep turns. A stall spin accident terrifies me, so I just don't get close to the edge. With passengers, and their distractions, I am even more cautious. I maintain a sterile cockpit rule before takeoff and below 1000, or in the pattern.

Communicate position and listen carefully in busy uncontrolled airspace -- I have had 2 fairly close calls where the other guy was not talking at all.

My thinking, Is what can I do to make this flight safer? I suppose I've had good CfI's. I have much to learn, these are just a few thoughts of the approach I have tried to take.

[cgzro]

A stall spin accident terrifies me

Terror is not condusive to proper control inputs in difficult situations. You probably could use a bit more training. When was the last time you did a whole wack of different spins?

[Rookie50]

A stall spin accident terrifies me

Terror is not condusive to proper control inputs in difficult situations. You probably could use a bit more training. When was the last time you did a whole wack of different spins?

Perhaps a poor choice of words, wary would be a better choice, especially in strong winds that could cause one to overshoot final. I have been reasonably trained in spin recovery, my wariness to even get near that situation relates to inadequate altitude for recovery in the pattern. 500 agl would be very difficult to recovery even for an expert.

[looproll]

I use GPS but assume a failure at any time, meaning I always have the vors tuned in along my route -- crucial in IMC

I love it when the GPS just quits. POSITION UNCERTAIN. I always have a map and follow along somewhat as I don't have a VOR receiver in my aircraft. It's a great kind of panic when the GPS quits and you have no idea where you are.

You mentioned minimum 80 as a speed. Is this consistent with the aircraft flight manual? I wouldn't be arbitrarily adding speed to my approach for no reason other than fear of a stall/spin/crash/burn. Extra speed means extra runway used. The only time I'll add speed above and beyond what is established is for gusty conditions or when I have to pee really bad.

[2550]

If you misjudge base to final and swing wide across the runway centerline, whats the big deal? Keep the coordinated turn going and get back to centerline. Ive never understood what the big deal is. Just dont make any uncoordinated turns and dont slow down to final apprch speed till established on final.

Also one other thing to keep in mind all the time is where the wind is from, reff gps, lakes, what drift you see looking out the window. This will keep you thinking about where you ll go if the engine quits, which way youll land, and how you ll get there. This will reduce the workload a lot when i happens.

[Colonel Sanders]

You need more cowbell (i.e. Don't Fear The Reaper)

I recover from intentional spins and tailslides below
1000 AGL all the time. All you need is some more
practice.

This picture was taken from the ground - think
about the implication of the angle:

www.pittspecials.com/images/gat_t12.jpg

Don't spend your whole career terrified of what
happens when the wing exceeds Clmax.

[Rookie50]

I use GPS but assume a failure at any time, meaning I always have the vors tuned in along my route -- crucial in IMC

I love it when the GPS just quits. POSITION UNCERTAIN. I always have a map and follow along somewhat as I don't have a VOR receiver in my aircraft. It's a great kind of panic when the GPS quits and you have no idea where you are.



You mentioned minimum 80 as a speed. Is this consistent with the aircraft flight manual? I wouldn't be arbitrarily adding speed to my approach for no reason other than fear of a stall/spin/crash/burn. Extra speed means extra runway used. The only time I'll add speed above and beyond what is established is for gusty conditions or when I have to pee really bad.

I use a map too, even in IMC. Good point. There is no reason not to know where you are, but I sense without a functional GPS many would be lost instantly. Good dead reckoning skills are valuable to know -- map time and compass. Vfr that should be all one needs. Does take practice though.

80 is my minimum, steep turn manuvering speed, 10 degrees flaps, pre final. I approach at 60 - 70 depends on winds.

[Rookie50]

You need more cowbell (i.e. Don't Fear The Reaper)

I recover from intentional spins and tailslides below
1000 AGL all the time. All you need is some more
practice.

This picture was taken from the ground - think
about the implication of the angle:

http://www.pittspecials.com/images/gat_t12.jpg

Don't spend your whole career terrified of what
happens when the wing exceeds Clmax.

Good for you. You are an airshow pilot with presumably thousands of hours in spin recoverable aircraft. Your abilities are already well known on AC.

This thread is written to the NEW PPL,s out there, i believe , about forming good conservative safety habits, including getting nowhere near a stall spin situation in the first place, and the pattern is where many of these regretfully occur. Most of the aircraft I, and they, would fly would be in a normal category and not certified for spins anyway.

The right message, I believe, is to fly patterns correctly and with a large safety margin above the stall, to avoid these situations. I am no expert, I still practice mine to keep them sharp.

Do you really want to teach them a spin at 1000 agl is nothing to worry about? I stay far away from the edge, that's me at this level. Perhaps one day I will take acrobatic training, in the right aircraft, and I can safely explore these maneuvers then.

[Rookie50]

If you misjudge base to final and swing wide across the runway centerline, whats the big deal? Keep the coordinated turn going and get back to centerline. Ive never understood what the big deal is. Just dont make any uncoordinated turns and dont slow down to final apprch speed till established on final.

Also one other thing to keep in mind all the time is where the wind is from, reff gps, lakes, what drift you see looking out the window. This will keep you thinking about where you ll go if the engine quits, which way youll land, and how you ll get there. This will reduce the workload a lot when i happens.

The temptation for some -- this is where i watch my airspeed -- in this situation, especially if close in, is to slow down immediately, increase bank angle / or worse add inside rudder, basically trying to hurry the correction. Get too slow and we know what can happen. The wind in the pattern is crucial, you are correct, it is so easy to blow through the runway center line when you turn base and the tailwind at 1000 is 30 kts.

[ant_321]

Although not about any specific accident, I have noticed as a low time 500 hr - CPL, a certain casualness about flying in some ppls I have observed, some with many many years of experience.

This note is written to the new ppls out there who are committed to becoming a serious student of avaition, even if this is only recreational for you. Treat this seriously, while enjoying the freedom of the sky, at all times.

I suppose my attitude is, while throughly enjoying flying, being in command, improving my skills and taking friends up, is that my aircraft, the winds and weather are trying to kill me if I am inattentive. This is why, even after a brief flight, i visual fuel and oil! -- before every next leg, do a brief inspection before every leg, check mags at least before every leg. ( of course a full run -up before first flight)
I recheck weather and radar each time on the ground before moving on ( on a longer trip) I don't push the weather, and I am on the ground with a least an hour of fuel -- more if in an area without multiple airports.

I don't have NEXRAD, so on longer trips I am calling ahead to flight watch, getting weather, pireps, revised forecasts. The options are there, so surprises do not happen -- at least areas you can get metars anyway.

I use GPS but assume a failure at any time, meaning I always have the vors tuned in along my route -- crucial in IMC. I restrict myself as a single engine, single pilot IFR, not flying professionally daily, to ceilings comfortably above legal minimums.

In the pattern, where so many accidents occur, I dont fly slower than 75 kts, (until final) 80 is minimum with any steep turns. A stall spin accident terrifies me, so I just don't get close to the edge. With passengers, and their distractions, I am even more cautious. I maintain a sterile cockpit rule before takeoff and below 1000, or in the pattern.

Communicate position and listen carefully in busy uncontrolled airspace -- I have had 2 fairly close calls where the other guy was not talking at all.

My thinking, Is what can I do to make this flight safer? I suppose I've had good CfI's. I have much to learn, these are just a few thoughts of the approach I have tried to take.

I'm not trying to sound like an ass, but you sound like a nervous wreck to me.

[akoch]

This also might have to do with the aircraft flown. A assume the original post was about something regional airplane like Chiftain or Navaho?

In a small piss-can I am flying, turns to final are 60kias, final is 50-52kias, downwind is 110-120kias . Steep turns (70-80 degrees) are at 50-60kias, with or without flaps. But there is no reason to do steep turns at 1000agl, so in the pattern I tend to do 40-50 daytime and rate1 at night, and at 60 degrees it is far from the edge... being a gentle descending turn 20-30 knots over the stall speed. So far this felt comfortable.

[Bede]

I'm not trying to sound like an ass, but you sound like a nervous wreck to me.

He sounds like a pretty cautious pilot to me- we would have far less accidents if all PPL's flew with this kind of discipline. As you get older in this industry, you get to know more and more pilots who have lost their lives for dumb reasons. Flying in a disciplined manner, whether in a C150 or a Boeing is a good way to stack the deck in your favour. I have lots of time in airplane small and large and I fly pretty much the same way.

I disagree though about the speed control in the circuit- I think it's overkill. I would encourage you to do some unusual attitude/aerobatic training in something simple, like a Citabria, to get you used to how aircraft fly when in a stall, spin, upside down.

[Colonel Sanders]

I would encourage you to do some unusual attitude/aerobatic training
in something simple, like a Citabria, to get you used to how aircraft fly when in a
stall, spin, upside down

Yes!! Yes!! Don't fear the stall/spin. The more you learn
about it, the better a pilot you will be, and your confidence
will grow in accordance with your skills.

I was leading a bizarre dissimilar form a while back in a Pitts
(straight and level). My kid was tucked in on echelon right,
and a couple of slow WWII airplanes were #3 and #4.

Kid was grumbling that he was getting a wing drop at the
very slow speed (and high AOA) that we had to fly, to
accomodate the slow aircraft. He had no problem flying
the aircraft through the stall/spin in close formation. It
was entirely controllable.

He's only 19 years old. You can fly as well as he can,
if you simply get some decent instruction and some
practice.

[tiggermoth]

Although not about any specific accident, I have noticed as a low time 500 hr - CPL, a certain casualness about flying in some ppls I have observed, some with many many years of experience.

I find myself slightly offended by this post. Let me tell you why, and you are not going to like it, but I'm sure there are a number of others who will be nodding their head in aggreement.

I myself am a low time PPL (150hrs) but I have spent a few years (approaching 13) in this industry as an AME. In that time, I have seen MANY commercial pilots do some incredibly stupid things, more so than some of the other PPL's. Now don't get me wrong, there are some pretty sketchy private guys out there, and they can be scary. Anyhow, in my experience, guys get their commercial license, finally get a flying job and away they go. For the first while they are cautious, make sure everything right, etc. Then after a while they get just enough experience under their belt to start thinking they are God, they start taking ridiculous chances, looking down on others pilots, generally just thinking that they are the best of the best. I can see this "holier than you" attitude creeping in to you just by reading your fisrt post.

Guess where that usually happens....right where you are at Rookie, about 500hrs. I find that this attitude either carries on until they scare the crap out of themselves, or get up to around 1000-1200 or so hrs and maturity kicks in, luckily before something bad happens. I have even seen that cycle often repeated by quite high time guys (10,000 hrs).

You really want to know some of the things I have seen done by CPL's. Here a just a quick list pulled off the top of my head:

-No preflight, just get in and go (too many times to count)
-Takeoff with cowls open
-No fuel sump drain (that one resulted in a landing in a river, 4 pax on board)
-Pushing weather, including thuderstorms!
-Flying through known ice in a Cessna 206 (seen that one a few times)
-Taking off with snow on the wings
-Doing runups on gravel, right beside the paved runup pad
-Getting lost, yes thats right, lost....in a King Air over Alberta. 2 guys in a King Air 100 lost their GPS and got lost. I'm not kidding. No GPS, they didn't know where to go. What made it worse is that it was a CAVU day!! I'm not making this one up! Seen it happen other times too, just not as bad as that time.
-Not checking NOTAM's and flying directly through airshow airspace on a charter....that one was amusing as I was at the show as a spectator. Happened during the A-10 Warthog demo too.
-One guy put the gear up instead of the flaps on the landing roll in a Baron (high time guy too)
-Push airplane into the hangar wall or door frame and takeoff anyway. Seen that twice now......resulted in a severe peepee slap
-Watched one guy start his Cessna 206 on a -20° day with the throttle about half open so he started the taxi as soon as it fired. Rolled straight to the runway and pushed the throttle the rest of the way and took off. He used to do that regularily, with the airplane fully loaded with groceries.

I could go on, but I won't. See, maybe there are some low time private guys that do scary things, but for every one of them there are also a number of CPL's that do equally scary things. Like I said, "the attitude" as some of us AME's around the shop like to call it, hits right about where you are. Go back and re-read your first post and you will see it. Before you go beaking off about us "scary private guys", take a close look at yourself, your attitude, and your flying. Others have pointed out already that perhaps your habits are faulty already.

The right message, I believe, is to fly patterns correctly and with a large safety margin above the stall, to avoid these situations.

Here is a perfect example, telling guys to "make up their own" flight manual based on what YOU say. My airplane has speeds to fly in the manual, if I were to add a "large safety margin" that you wan't me too, I would be setting myself up for a problem later on. Namely, an excessive float down the runway, possibly followed by a landing to far down the runway to get stopped in time, or an overshoot into the trees at the end of the runway. Now the airport I fly at has 6900ft of runway so this isn't an issue, but suppose I went somewhere short one day and I was in the habit of coming in too fast?? Now YOU and YOUR advice have set me up for an accident instead of helping me.

[Rookie50]

A couple of clarifications: To CS; I agree this would be extremely valuable; and this type of training: (unusual attitudes, upset recovery; speciallized spin training, in the correct aircraft) is not something I have been exposed to; so I am very cautious. I am not even sure where to recieve such training. I do know a place that has acquired a tailwheel AC; so have considered getting my tail rating.

To Tiger Moth; it is not arrogance intended. It is my philosophy of flying I have developed; as a relatively inexperienced; light airplane pilot; for anyone's benefit. Take whatever is valuable; or nothing. I have seen some of what you have seen, and I don't think the rating really matters.

It is a cautious be prepared attitude, not intended to communicate I have it all anywhere near figured out. I am not a working CPL; I am a functional PPL who got his CPL to train to a higher standard; and hopefully for future volunteer work that requires a CPL.

My motives are -- I just hate reading about fatal accidents!

For what its worth; I actually kind of think I know less than at 250 hrs. I think I am writing to that kind of PPL; because then I thought I had most of it figured out. The IFR rating changed my attitude to a more careful; cautious one; because IFR accidents don't end well.

I have seen both very cautious and loose other pilots; no idea of their ratings; both had an impact on my approach to aviation. I am fortunate to have flown with a couple of (high time PPL's) that were real pro's; too.

As for speeds; a clarification: I meant a healthy speed margin above the stall; esp. in gusty condtions; IN THE CIRCUIT; and BEFORE FINAL APPROACH LEG, ie. any steep manuvering. On Final approach I use POH speeds; + a little in extremely gusty conditions.

[Rookie50]

Another brief point; I think newer pilots can benefit from an informal mentoring relationship with a more experienced pilot with good habits. I have benefited from this myself with one of the aforementioned PPL's; who taught me a lot about good IFR habits when I was brand new. I have asked him dozens of questions over a preiod of time. A real pro.

[Shiny Side Up]

I think newer pilots can benefit from an informal mentoring relationship with a more experienced pilot with good habits.

Very true, though very few new pilots are suitably equipped to judge who a good mentor is. There's a lot of "experienced" pilots out there with a lot of bad habits too, which aren't readily apparent to a neophyte.

[akoch]

Yes, you pretty much have to go with a 'gut feel' to find somebody you can learn from. Aviation is an interesting world, seems to have a lot of "real pilots with attitudes" around

[Rookie50]

I think I knew I had a valuable mentor when his approach to IFR seemed to be right out of the book. No Shortcuts, and most of all he really always takes his time. No hurrying.

[cncpc]

-Takeoff with cowls open

Is that a bad thing? Cause I've been doing it for over 30 years.

[tiggermoth]

tiggermoth wrote:
-Takeoff with cowls open

Is that a bad thing? Cause I've been doing it for over 30 years.

Either you are trying to be funny, or you are confusing cowl FLAPS with the COWLING. I am not talking about the cowl flaps, I am talking about the accesss doors for checking oil, preflights etc, or even the whole damn cowl itself open.

We had one last summer where the pilot of an A-Star helicopter took off with both transmission cowls and the engine cowl open, plus a ladder hanging off the skid tube.

[Rookie50]

Wow. Actually I thought you meant cowl flaps too. All I can say is wow.

[Colonel Sanders]

Uh, lots of people fly without cowlings. What the big deal?

Ever see a banner tow?



Or a Stearman?

[Rookie50]

No; but I'd like to. What a beautiful bird.

[Beefitarian]

One difference is those planes don't have an unlatched door banging against the side of them.