I got a bad feeling about this year...

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Shiny Side Up
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I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Especially in the flight training world.

Why you may ask? Its based mostly on what trends I see in the industry. First let me say that its a good time to have your class four, it seems flight schools are snapping up anyone with a rating and a heartbeat. Some information came to me today so I decided to do a little research. Almost every instructor who's passed a resume this way in the last year has been hired. Scary. There's a reason I didn't hire a lot of those guys which makes me wonder who were the people that did. Desperate CFIs? Were there even interviews or assessments conducted on these guys? If there were, was it acceptable?

This is something that continually worries me, bad instructors continually seem to find employment. What I think worries me the most about this year is that it seems demand for giving training has outstripped any sort of worry about quality. If you're a new student, be prepared to spend a lot of time seeing your instructor shine up his new bars. Don't put up with anyone who tries to inflict "death by briefing" on you.

Hopefully I'm wrong. :|
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CpnCrunch
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by CpnCrunch »

Just out of curiosity, what was bad about these guys?
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by photofly »

There's a reason I didn't hire a lot of those guys which makes me wonder who were the people that did.
When you're King, you can just tell TC who should and shouldn't have an instructor rating, then we can do away with these tiresome flight tests. :-)

Maybe some of the people who hired them were prepared to invest some time and energy into making them good instructors - more than you were.
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by High Flyin »

It's unfortunate that you group all class IV instructors into the same category. A bunch of know if all know nothings, but where do you think class II and class I's start out?

I didn't know wanting to be a career long instructor was a prerequisite to teach?

Now I'll admit, I'm a class IV, and have hopes of moving onto AC or WS (maybe that will change in the future), but does that make me a bad instructor because clearly I'm only doing it for the hours? I say no. Fact of the matter is I'm a flight instructor today, and I'll be one when I wake up tomorrow morning. I have a responsiblity to deliver the highest standard of teaching that I can. Anything less I'd be disappointed in me. Anything I don't know, I'll look up or ask. I take pride in what I do at all moments. It's too bad you don't seem to look pass that.
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by Shiny Side Up »

CpnCrunch wrote:Just out of curiosity, what was bad about these guys?
Long list. I should say I flew with some of these guys to give them the benefit of the doubt. Some couldn't land the airplane. When you see a guy with 230+ hours miss a runway twice and not figure it out, its not encouraging. I also learned that to some, 3000' of pavement is considered a "short field" and required special technique. A few had padded resumes. A lot gave 2 hour plus PGIs, whom there's one class one out there who's on my shit list since he teaches the "don't miss anything" technique. Those were the most memorable.
photofly wrote:When you're King, you can just tell TC who should and shouldn't have an instructor rating, then we can do away with these tiresome flight tests. :-)
No, when I'm king, whomever is giving some of these guys a pass on their tests is going to be out of a job.
Maybe some of the people who hired them were prepared to invest some time and energy into making them good instructors - more than you were.
I thought that way once too. You're right, I'm not prepared to invest that time, but more importantly, I'm not willing for one of these guys to spend a student's time so they can become a decent instructor. Interestingly, many of the candidates were not interested in improving, but rather sticking with what they had learned wherever they were taught, so the effort would have just given me more grey hair. There was a somewhat unwillingness to learn something new which I found rather disturbing.
High Flyin wrote:It's unfortunate that you group all class IV instructors into the same category. A bunch of know nothings.
Actually I didn't do that, I hired the ones who were good and showed promise. I was disappointed to see that while all the good ones I've seen are now employed, so are all the bad ones. Its about a 50/50 mix. I'm disappointed in some of my fellow CFIs out there who don't seem to be doing their job of quality control very well.
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Post by Beefitarian »

No, when I'm king, whomever is giving some of these guys a pass on their tests is going to be out of a job.
How do you spell, "unemployment numbers rise under king shiny side up."? I'm making some protest signs.
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by akoch »

The whole situation needs to be reversed. Learning from an accomplished pilot is a lot more fun (and a lot more useful). And it takes time, experience, and achievements to become an accomplished pilot who is worth learning from.

PS with the above out of the door, I still don't get how do you miss a 3000 runway two times in a row at 230 hours. Unless something else weird was going on like you flew the circuit shiny side down CS style :smt040
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by photofly »

Actually I didn't do that, I hired the ones who were good and showed promise.
You're still to blame. You didn't leave any good instructors for the rest to hire, so they had to hire the lousy ones.

See, I can make anything out to be your fault.

As for being unwilling to learn something new: that is a fault of a lot of people, not just flight instructors.
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by Cat Driver »

I got a bad feeling about this year...
I had that feeling twenty two years ago when I sold my flight school because it was just not worth the constant struggle trying to find instructors who were even close to being acceptable.

I see nothing has changed.

Turning out flight instructors seems to be an industry in its own right.....regardless of their ability to fly or teach same.

No, when I'm king, whomever is giving some of these guys a pass on their tests is going to be out of a job.
Nothing will change until you put the people in TC flight training in Ottawa out of their job, if they were doing their job this situation would not exist.
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Post by Beefitarian »

I'm not saying you don't have a valid point. I suspect Orville and Wilbur complained instruction was getting worse too though.

There has always been some good instructors. It's just the bad ones stand out so much they are easier to remember. I agree, the test was supposed to cull the herd.
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by Cat Driver »

Once again let me say this:

I had that feeling twenty two years ago when I sold my flight school because it was just not worth the constant struggle trying to find instructors who were even close to being acceptable.
My flight school had no problem expanding as I built it from one Cessna 150 to six single engine airplanes and a Seguin Geronimo twin with an excellent IFR panel including a moving map display and RNAV.

I also had helicopter flight training with a R22 Mariner.

I just could not find suitable flight instructors so did the only sane thing and sold everything.

Therefore>>>>>

After 22 years it seems nothing has changed with regard to the quality of flight instructors, unless of course people like Shiney are just lying.
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

I think the problem is worse than SSU makes out. Not only are incompetent/unmotivated Class 4 getting jobs because there are not better candidates, but the recent high rate of hiring by the turbine 703/704 has stripped out most of the mid level senior Class 3 and Class 2 instructors from many schools. So you we are now seeing the unfortunate combination of too many less then exemplary junior instructors operating with no adult supervision.......
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:I think the problem is worse than SSU makes out. Not only are incompetent/unmotivated Class 4 getting jobs because there are not better candidates, but the recent high rate of hiring by the turbine 703/704 has stripped out most of the mid level senior Class 3 and Class 2 instructors from many schools. So you we are now seeing the unfortunate combination of too many less then exemplary junior instructors operating with no adult supervision.......
I think you're right. Hiring has been the highest in, well, as long as I've been flying. I've noticed that not only are instructor spots open, but quite a few places looking for CFIs and class 1s. One ad was out a little while ago that seemed to be looking to replace the entire school's staff. I'd suspect that a few places have that sort of "absent" CFI thing going on. Something that sort of got me looking into this was when I spoke to a fellow class 1 who said they were teaching seven new class 4s all of who were pre ordered by the sounds of it by another school.
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by triplese7en »

Would it be a wrong assessment to say that almost all of the pilots these days seem to be less than enthusiastic about flying, learning, flight discipline, procedural perfection, and other good qualities? And top those off with poor skill level and you've got an average new pilot these days. Not just instructors. When you're on course to fly a twin-engine turboprop in a commercial operation and you're not interested in sitting in the cockpit to review procedures, what does that say?
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Post by Beefitarian »

Cat Driver wrote:Once again let me say this:

I had that feeling twenty two years ago when I sold my flight school because it was just not worth the constant struggle trying to find instructors who were even close to being acceptable.
My flight school had no problem expanding as I built it from one Cessna 150 to six single engine airplanes and a Seguin Geronimo twin with an excellent IFR panel including a moving map display and RNAV.

I also had helicopter flight training with a R22 Mariner.

I just could not find suitable flight instructors so did the only sane thing and sold everything.

Therefore>>>>>

After 22 years it seems nothing has changed with regard to the quality of flight instructors, unless of course people like Shiney are just lying.
I don't see where he said there are no suitable flight instructors. This was only implied because he wrote he was surprised to hear everone including some unsuitable ones have been hired.

He said...
I hired the ones who were good and showed promise. I was disappointed to see that while all the good ones I've seen are now employed, so are the bad ones...
So you appear to be focused on what High Flyin wrote "It's unfortunate you group all class IV instructors..." and ignoring that Shiny actually wrote, there are some good ones.

So yes there are bad instructors and lots of them seem to be getting jobs, finally yes that's kind of bad. However, it's not the zombie apocalypse of flight training just yet.

Cheer up everyone.
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by CpnCrunch »

Shiny Side Up wrote:Hiring has been the highest in, well, as long as I've been flying.
If that's the case, why do you need 1500hrs to be a Cheyenne first officer that pays $27k?
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by Shiny Side Up »

CpnCrunch wrote:
If that's the case, why do you need 1500hrs to be a Cheyenne first officer that pays $27k?
When I started, that job ad would have read 5000 hours required for a first officer spot that paid $15K, if there was any job ads that is. It also would have been an Aztec and probably out of somewhere charming that started with "Fort" or "Lake". Hell, some places required that to fly a 206. Now those jobs are being offered out of places more civilized, but the important thing just being that there are ads. Steadily you're seeing the requirements come down.
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by habs.fan »

Shiny Side Up wrote:
CpnCrunch wrote:
If that's the case, why do you need 1500hrs to be a Cheyenne first officer that pays $27k?
When I started, that job ad would have read 5000 hours required for a first officer spot that paid $15K, if there was any job ads that is. It also would have been an Aztec and probably out of somewhere charming that started with "Fort" or "Lake". Hell, some places required that to fly a 206. Now those jobs are being offered out of places more civilized, but the important thing just being that there are ads. Steadily you're seeing the requirements come down.
I've got an instructor here that tells the story of when he was a class 2 or 3 with a couple thousand hours and would see a Navajo land in front of the school, the guys would tell him not to look at it to avoid being discouraged. I'm just a low-time dufus, but I have heard about the bad times. Sure glad they're over, but not sure that it's not at the cost of competence and motivation.
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by N1 Green »

“When I use to fly for them…”
“Back in 1970 you can only get a job by working your ass on the ramp”
“In the good old days they will only take you to fly right seat on a Cessna 00072 with 4 million hours minimum”

IT IS 2013! Wake up Canada!
Canada is finally changing. The very old attitude of “come up north to work your ass” is getting replaced with more educated attitude like they lead in Europe, that a guy with 400 hours G1000 is more valuable then 1500hr bush driver from NT.
The other issue with most of the flight instructors is the poor IFR knowledge. Just try it, walk into any average flight school and ask a class 2 about a stall recovery, he can talk about it for 4 hours. Later ask him to tell you about LDA approach and he would talk about it for 4 minutes, maybe. And yes – he is MIFR rated.
Let’s face it; the only true reason that companies hire flight instructors with 800 hours or a 2 yr ramp guy with 250 hours is because they worked for 2-3 years in a commercial environment other the COBS bread or Burger king.
And to be more clear on my point: I would prefer to hire a married pilot with 2 kids at the age of 31 with 260 hours than hiring a 23 years old with 1400 hours. Why? Because the 23 years old is still under the influence of the drug called “High School”, where the older guy would stick around if ill offer him reasonable $$ and benefits.
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by Cat Driver »

Canada is finally changing. The very old attitude of “come up north to work your ass” is getting replaced with more educated attitude like they lead in Europe, that a guy with 400 hours G1000 is more valuable then 1500hr drunk bush driver from NT.
Really?

More valuable to do what?
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by CPLMike89 »

habs.fan wrote:I would prefer to hire a married pilot with 2 kids at the age of 31 with 260 hours than hiring a 23 years old with 1400 hours. Why? Because the 23 years old is still under the influence of the drug called “High School”, where the older guy would stick around if ill offer him reasonable $$ and benefits
What makes you think that? I'm 23, single, I have 1700 hours and I've been at the same 703 op for two years now and have no plans on going anywhere. In the last year I've seen a few guys pass through here averaging about 2 months of employment each and yes they were all late 20's early 30's some with kids and such. My point being age and experience only go so far, its your attitude that dictates your employability. It shouldn't matter if someone is 18 or 58 if he/she has a great work ethic and a positive attitude that makes them way easier to work with than a lot of the jaded individuals aviation seems to produce regardless of age or experience.
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by N1 Green »

Few years ago I was working as a plumber in a preschool project for few days near Red Deer.
I was amazed to see how tight the preschool teachers secure the kids –using a 2 way radio, counting the kids every time someone leaves the class, securing the parking lot when they arrive etc... Well done to my opinion. By the end of the day, parents must sign them out properly and the kids are being released based on a very sharp procedure. Around 6 in the evening, I was still working in the front lobby, noticing that few kids (at the age of 5-6) are freely walking from one of the classes to the free outside parking lot with no supervision.
I went to this very dynamic young lady (she was around 20+ fresh after college , she looks to me like the manager there as she was telling everyone what to do over the 2 way radio all day), I told her that some kids are walking out to the parking lot, and she looks at me and say “Yes I know, I saw that , but they are not under my supervision, it’s a different class platform – it’ a mistake someone else did, there is nothing I can do” I tried again to offer here my help to bring the kids into the building and she kept telling me the same thing like a dam robot, I felt I was talking to a 22 years old lady after collage with a brain of 12 years old max. I asked one of the older 50+ day care assistant there to help me with the kids running outside and she did not hesitate for a second and helped me.


CPLmike89, what I am trying to say (using this loooong story:)) The older you get, the more life and work experience you gain, the more you think out of the dam box.
Yes I totally agree with you that for some people age does nothing, they will stay with their high school 16 yr attitude for their rest of their life... but in general, a 22 years old guy is way more dynamic and has the ability to quickly move from YYC to YHZ to YVR as required just to upgrade himself and get some multi turbine. Where the other guy with some commitment to his family/mortgage/other would prefer to get a steady pay cheque and live his life.
It is a complicated topic that is not related only to Aviation. Your parents did good when they give you some values on how to respect and value the job and things you get. Other young pilots are different, and in some cased, the age push some wisdom into their Brain FMC.
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by N1 Green »

Cat Driver wrote:
Canada is finally changing. The very old attitude of “come up north to work your ass” is getting replaced with more educated attitude like they lead in Europe, that a guy with 400 hours G1000 is more valuable then 1500hr drunk bush driver from NT.
Really?

More valuable to do what?
-Calling HDG green loud when they see it on the PFD after climbing a complicated SID with restrictions on a 737,
and not looking outside to see if the plane is actually turning.

-Understanding why FLCH mode is safer than VS mode on a climb

-100 more examples but the big one: being able to quickly and easly learn new avionics systems and mix this knowledge with some SOP's



Yes I know, the 1500hr bush guy landed on ice with gusting 35 knots crosswind, but that’s why he is a bush pilot, he is good at that.
Next you take him and put him on Citation X and expect him to manage aircraft energy on a sharp STAR with n/o spoilers and with no VNAV assistant – good luck.
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by iflyforpie »

N1 Green wrote:
-Understanding why FLCH mode is safer than VS mode on a climb
These morons didn't know that either. Heck, one of them was an ERAU grad.... :roll: Their conduct was 100% 'bush' without either of them ever flying in it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_A ... light_3701
Next you take him and put him on Citation X and expect him to manage aircraft energy on a sharp STAR with n/o spoilers and with no VNAV assistant – good luck.
Yes... the glass cockpit cripple would definetly have problems with that.... the bush driver with good hands and feet on the other hand.... what were you trying to say?
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Re: I got a bad feeling about this year...

Post by N1 Green »

iflyforpie I am talking about milk taste and you are giving me all kind of cow types.
similar platform - 2 different things, focus on the subject please.

The 3701 event caused by 2 pilots trying to have fun with commercial jet. How many 3701 happened on earth? Irrelevant to this subject.
About your other comment. What I am trying to say is simple; flying 2000 hours Cessna 206 VMC and maybe 15% IFR during the year gives only a minor advantage down the road when transitioning from bush to turbine SOP glass environment. In other words: “come up north and work your ass” belongs to the 80's

You don't need good feet and hands to fly 757. you need managmant attitude, You are managing the flight. That is one thing that most pilots having issues with when switching from CFI/Bush to PM/PF on a 737
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