Commercial pilots - Closing flight plan while airborne

[triplese7en]

You do not need to say: "Cancel the IFR and continue VFR, company note". What you're really meaning to say is: "Close the flight plan". When you tell ATC that you're closing your flight plan, alerting services are terminated automatically - there is no need to tell them that you're on a company itinerary or what you had for lunch.

If you would like to cancel the IFR clearance/flight plan and keep the alerting services, then say: "Cancelling IFR". The information on your IFR flight plan will be 'transferred' to a VFR flight plan.

If you need more info on this refer to the TC AIM, RAC 3.12.2.

[TA/RA]

Only word of caution is:
If you are talking to a FAA control unit inbound to an American or Canadian airport and you "Cancel IFR" this also cancels your alerting service.

[Edo]

"If I say cancel IFR". The next question 90%of the time is "would you like to keep alerting services open" The other 10% is roger understand you are continuing on a company note.

[photofly]

"Cancel IFR, maintain alerting" seems to have worked for me.

[ahramin]

And that's the problem photo. So many of us just go with what worked before or what they heard on the radio before rather than what is supposed to be done. "Cancel IFR" and "Cancel IFR, maintain alerting" mean exactly the same thing.

[photofly]

I take your point. But Edo's right, in practice: "cancel IFR" almost invariably is met with "do you want to keep your alerting open?"

I wonder what MANOPS says.

[ahramin]

Then we need to have this discussion with Controllers and Flight Service Specialists as well.

The difference between canceling IFR and closing a flight plan is quite clear in the AIM. The MANOPS doesn't address it other than to reinforce that a flight that cancels IFR automatically continues CVFR or VFR. If I had a controller or specialist ask me if I wanted to keep the alerting services open, I would repeat that I'm just cancelling IFR.

On a related note, as mentioned above they deal with flight plans completely differently in the US. This has resulted in many flights crossing the border northbound without an active flight plan. If you are VFR, tower will not open your flight plan, and FSS will not assume you off. You need to open the flight plan with FSS.

[Liquid Charlie]

It's strange how local radioisms surface - and also as in the above the cover up of lack of knowledge with expounding expanding and verbal diarrhea some think necessary -- and my pet peeve -- all uncontrolled airspace should be standard altimeter setting which brings us to the radio call --no zero in front for altitude call below FL 100 -- next time I here someone say "last off" for a departure call I am going to ask who was "first off" -- lmfaooooooo --

[Rudy]

"If I say cancel IFR". The next question 90%of the time is "would you like to keep alerting services open" The other 10% is roger understand you are continuing on a company note.

Yeah, tell the controllers. Even if you try to word it "Close the flight plan." they ask if you want to maintain alerting, which is inexplicable.

[photofly]

If I had a controller or specialist ask me if I wanted to keep the alerting services open, I would repeat that I'm just cancelling IFR.

At my level of experience, I don't think I have the cojones to do that. I need ATC to remain indulgent of my errors!

On a related note, as mentioned above they deal with flight plans completely differently in the US. This has resulted in many flights crossing the border northbound without an active flight plan. If you are VFR, tower will not open your flight plan, and FSS will not assume you off. You need to open the flight plan with FSS.

I learnt something very interesting yesterday filing VFR out of the US. You can instruct Flight Services to "Assume Departure" at a particular time, in which case your flight plan will be opened automatically, just like in Canada.

[triplese7en]

And that's the problem photo. So many of us just go with what worked before or what they heard on the radio before rather than what is supposed to be done. "Cancel IFR" and "Cancel IFR, maintain alerting" mean exactly the same thing.

Exactly!

The problem initially started because pilots didn't use proper terminology. Continuing to use improper terminology won't fix the problem.

I take your point. But Edo's right, in practice: "cancel IFR" almost invariably is met with "do you want to keep your alerting open?"

I've found from listening to other aircraft cancel or close that unless you're quite clear on what you want to do the controller will ask. I've heard some pilots say: "I'd like to close the IFR". That's confusing because you never close the IFR - you cancel it. The controller picked up on this and asked if the pilot wanted to close the flight plan and alerting and he replied: "affirmative".

My advice would be to stick to your proper terminology and make sure you're clear with ATC - don't speak at 1000 mph! If they do ask if you want to keep your alerting all you have to do is say: "affirmative".

I heard another call on the radio a couple weeks ago where an aircraft said: "I'd like to close the flight plan" and ATC said: "Flight plan is closed". There was a pause and then the airplane came back and asked: "Just to confirm that the alerting services are terminated.." and ATC said: "Your flight plan is closed". He didn't have that warm fuzzy feeling in his voice! Technically (according to MANOPS), he should have said that alerting services were terminated.

[x-wind]

Ahramin or anybody have insight into canceling IFR above A125, below F180 of course, whistle in controlled airspace aka in class B?

It is my belief that i should be able to cancle IFR without any grief and contiune CVFR. Yet I often get told I cannot cancle until below A125.

Oh, and I have to mention this. Anybody here fly non sched or corporate, into YYC? RAPT is a pain in the arse hey? I think it is BS at the moment.

[natural]

I've heard some pilots say: "I'd like to close the IFR". That's confusing because you never close the IFR - you cancel it.

Sure you do. When you're flying up north, in vmc, into uncontrolled airports, like many 703/704 operators do, that's exactly what you do. You close the IFR so you don't have to worry about remembering to phone to cancel the "alerting" or the phones are not even working.

[triplese7en]

It is my belief that i should be able to cancle IFR without any grief and contiune CVFR. Yet I often get told I cannot cancle until below A125.

Why would you want/need to cancel above 12500'? When you're already IFR you don't really gain anything by going CVFR.

I've heard some pilots say: "I'd like to close the IFR". That's confusing because you never close the IFR - you cancel it.

Sure you do. When you're flying up north, in vmc, into uncontrolled airports, like many 703/704 operators do, that's exactly what you do. You close the IFR so you don't have to worry about remembering to phone to cancel the "alerting" or the phones are not even working.

You must have skipped over what I wrote. What you should say is: "Close the flight plan". That automatically takes away any IFR clearance that you had, deletes your flight plan, and terminates the alerting service.

[ahramin]

Ahramin or anybody have insight into canceling IFR above A125, below F180 of course, whistle in controlled airspace aka in class B?

It is my belief that i should be able to cancle IFR without any grief and contiune CVFR. Yet I often get told I cannot cancle until below A125.

Except in Class A airspace, an aircraft may cancel IFR and
proceed CVFR or VFR. Control transfer is effected as
specified in Agreements or Arrangements.
495.2 Reference:
Control Transfer; 362

[Maynard]

Can we also add...
-You do not need to see the airport to cancel. As long as your VMC..
-You are not "VFR, We'll cancel the IFR", You're 'VMC'
-"Centre, its ABC with a request..." If your calling, obviously you have some sort of request
-ABC is currently 20 miles over the lake at this time...Again I think its assumed when you give a position, we assume it's "the now"... getting off topic and too many more to go...

[photofly]

Again I think its assumed when you give a position, we assume it's "the now"

Beg to disagree, a little bit. Check the back of the CFS for the format of a position report.

1. Identification
2. Position
3. Time
etc.

"XXXX MANS VOR at 21 (minutes past the hour) ...."
vs.
"XXXX MANS VOR present time..."

[Maynard]

I'm only talking about enroute 26.7 flying, not to disagree with what your saying, its true, but you're not going to say "blah blah over fisting lake 2,500 21 minutes ago...."

[photofly]

Colour me unusual, but if I'm making a position report I do actually give the time I was over the checkpoint. Sometimes it's taken me 10 minutes to raise FSS on the radio. And I do it with the minutes past the hour (which I probably scribbled on my chart at the time) and not the time elapsed since. If less than a minute has elapsed, and if FSS gets back to me right away then I use exactly the phrase "present time".

[Maynard]

I think your missing what I'm saying....I'm talking general broadcasts while flying enroute to alert other aircraft of your existence.....not calling into London FIC...

[photofly]

I'm talking general broadcasts while flying enroute to alert other aircraft of your existence

In that case In which case I should try to follow the guidance on the back of the Toronto VTA (for example):
"Traffic in the Alton Area Cessna Golf Alpha Bravo Charlie over Alton Two Thousand Five Hundred on VFR route Aurora East" - which as you point out doesn't include "At this time" or "present time" or "now".

(I'll let them off saying "FIVE" instead of the ICAO standard of "FIFE", however. How's that for laxity?)

[ahramin]

It's a good point. So many instructors these days teach their students to make VFR position reports on 26.7 to other traffic from the back of the CFS. Completely wrong. Those position reports are to ATC or FSS, not to be broadcast to traffic.

[A-Team]

"If I say cancel IFR". The next question 90%of the time is "would you like to keep alerting services open" The other 10% is roger understand you are continuing on a company note.

+1

I just use "Cancel IFR - Close the Alerting"

[ahramin]

"If I say cancel IFR". The next question 90%of the time is "would you like to keep alerting services open" The other 10% is roger understand you are continuing on a company note.

+1

I just use "Cancel IFR - Close the Alerting"

Good idea. Just keep doing it wrong.

[NJ]

I don't have the exact quote with me, but if someone informs us they are cancelling IFR, we are required to ask if they would like the alerting open. If you don't mention what you'd like to do with the alerting, we will ask you anyways so save a transmission.