Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

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loopy
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Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by loopy »

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Liftdump
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by Liftdump »

I don't believe they required a study for this.
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by Dash-Ate »

I though it said Study shows career pilots becoming less attractive

:P
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Tail-Chaser
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by Tail-Chaser »

Given enough crew meals it was inevitable.
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scopiton
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by scopiton »

mind you this is a survey concerning 205 students only...... a bit short to draw conclusions/
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Rowdy
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by Rowdy »

Career pilots are unattractive !

All jokes aside.. its very true. Working conditions get worse, hours get longer, benefits disappear, wages drop and public perception is in the toilet. Other than 'loving to fly' why would anyone choose this as a career path?
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5x5
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by 5x5 »

I'm curious, which careers are becoming more attractive? With the world economy and all, I get the sense most careers are less attractive than they were.

Can't quite figure out why so many pilots seem to revel in their negativity.
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by Tail-Chaser »

Because it's easier to sit and stew than change something.
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by DareDevil »

What a shock to see this one....when you get treated like a rented mule and told that you should be grateful to even have a job in this economy with $50k in student debt, making $45000 as a copilot for these airlines, and have a family to support and own a house, its a wonder why more people don't jump to the opportunity of becoming a pilot (sarcasm).

UNNNNLEEESSSSS, your mom and dad paid for your training, your young, single and still live at home in their basement and you hit the bar with all friends who have the same haircut as you do. All of a sudden $45000 seems like a lot of money. And benefits fffff, who needs em cause your covered under your parents plan.
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Panama Jack
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by Panama Jack »

5x5 wrote:I'm curious, which careers are becoming more attractive? With the world economy and all, I get the sense most careers are less attractive than they were.

Can't quite figure out why so many pilots seem to revel in their negativity.
I gave a few hours of glider flight instruction last summer. My student was a late-teenager, ex-Air Cadet who for one reason or another wasn't selected for the RCAC's flying scholarship scheme. He indicated he was interested in a career in aviation, but difficulty in figuring how to come up with the sizeable investment for all the different licenses. He was a good student, quick learner, and soloed within the first two weeks of his first lesson.

Fell out of touch with him until a few weeks ago, when I had an on-line conversation with him, during which I asked him what he was planning to do in the Fall after High School. I was surprised when the answer wasn't aviation school.

His plan: Steam Engineering at one of the Institutes of Technology here in Canada. After 3 years of study, he would graduate with a 3rd Class engineering ticket and be able to enter a high-demand area (looks like in fracking). When I asked him about salaries, he indicated that the base salary for 3rd class is around $83,000 to $100,000 per year. But it all depends which company. My reply was that this is similar to what some jet airline Captains make in Canada, after years and years of career building.

With that kind on money he can pay off any tuition debt fairly quickly, start saving while he is young, and likely play with airplanes when the sun is shining and after a good night's sleep.

He then indicated that he would probably just do that for a few years, "because it is not a terribly exciting job," then go back to school and to do "real" engineering and have an actual degree at some point.

Do I need to explain further about what talented young people are thinking?
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5x5
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by 5x5 »

Well PJ - if that's such a great option why don't you take 3 years and do it yourself? Not that much of a sacrifice. That way you wouldn't have to endure the unbearable life you're currently embroiled in. And in 3 short years you'd have a terrific job, lots of $$$ and life would be grand.

Plus, you'd open up a spot wherever it is you're currently working for someone else who maybe doesn't share your views on how much aviation sucks.
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by bmc »

5x5 wrote:Well PJ - if that's such a great option why don't you take 3 years and do it yourself? Not that much of a sacrifice. That way you wouldn't have to endure the unbearable life you're currently embroiled in. And in 3 short years you'd have a terrific job, lots of $$$ and life would be grand.

Plus, you'd open up a spot wherever it is you're currently working for someone else who maybe doesn't share your views on how much aviation sucks.
I think PJ is doing just fine. He's one of the smarter lads who left Canada for a decent paying flying job on an Airbus.

Are you suggesting that going into debt for a flying job that overtime will be pay less and less is the smarter way to go?
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Panama Jack
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by Panama Jack »

5X5. The question is about why young people aren't enthused about a career in aviation. Nothing about myself, but if it must become a topic of discussion, I have had a fortunate career path and managed to eke out a small corner in this industry. I am also a little too old, too thick, too lazy, to go back to school and learn something entirely new (besides my wife would be wondering about who will pay the bills while my ex would wonder about the child support payments).

Had I been starting out anew, and knowing what I know now, I might have gone for it. It is one year less than I spent at university getting a Bachelor's degree and I certainly didn't graduate into a robust job market that paid that kind of salary or where employers were actively looking for another pilot.

By the way, the tone of your messages seem unreasonably hostile and aggressive for this topic of discussion. Did I say something to offend you?
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High Flyin
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by High Flyin »

I'm not necessarily convinced that working conditions and pay are what's driving less people to become pilots. Especially if you're pooling the younger crowd.

When a student starts flying, they're usually focused on right now, flying as a career is likely an after thought, a bridge that must be crossed later. I'd make the bold statement to say that most students jump into flying without knowing anything that's involved really with becoming a pro pilot.

If you really want to figure out why less and less people fly, I'd say more to do with money. You're looking at between 220-250 per hour now dual.

With every increasing flight training costs, and lower wages, it looks like flying is becoming a rich mans game.
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Last edited by High Flyin on Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Panama Jack
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by Panama Jack »

Interesting thoughts, High Flyin.

I kind of got the idea that while some of the Air Cadet crowd and other individuals may get a Glider or Private Pilot License or some initial flight training, before they started to go for a Commercial License they already had done research about opportunities in aviation and how to reach those objectives before pursuing the commitment.

I definitely would agree with you though that the per-hour sticker shock gets people.
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5x5
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by 5x5 »

Panama Jack wrote:By the way, the tone of your messages seem unreasonably hostile and aggressive for this topic of discussion. Did I say something to offend you?
I guess I do get a little hot under the collar when pilots diss flying and talk about how wonderful other careers are. I think that aviation has, like any career choice, lots of opportunity. Is it easy, no. Can you make more money elsewhere, sure. You can make lots more than that Steam Engineer too. Decide what's important to you and go for it. Compare any job and you can find others that offer more of something but less of others. It always come back to deciding what's important to you.

In your own post you admit you're doing well - so are you special? The unique one-in-a-million example? I'm sure both you and I know a lot of other pilots that are doing quite well. There have been a number of other threads along the line of "would you do it different" and I recall that most respondents actually wouldn't.

You may think I'm unreasonably hostile, but I feel you're portraying an unreasonably negative view of aviation and that does bug me. How can we get the general public to view aviation more positively and actually support the need for airports rather than their destruction if, as a community, we bad mouth it all the time?
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HuD 91gt
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by HuD 91gt »

Being a young guy, who had a few hard years of work and sacrifice. A few close calls, and some sleepless nights. I look back to where I am now, what i've seen, the financial investments i've banked(Despite mediocre pay). There isn't a chance in hell i'd rather be doing anything else. Maybe it was just a good attitude...
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by Chaxterium »

HuD 91gt wrote:There isn't a chance in hell i'd rather be doing anything else.
Amen. I feel the same. I've made a lot of sacrifices to be where I am and I'm sure there are still lots of sacrifices to come, but I wouldn't change a thing.

As I say to most people who ask me about my career: I love my job, but I hate my industry.

Cheers,
Chax
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by +RA »

From an economic standpoint, I can certainly understand why many young people might be deterred from pursuing a career in aviation.

For someone leaving high school, one of their options is that they could complete their flight training at a local FTU up to the CPL MIFR level, costing $50 000 minimum while taking at least a year to complete. Now, from what I understand, the starting salaries in aviation are fairly low, in the $20 000/yr range. That's of course if you're lucky enough to find a job.

Alternatively, they could go get pre-apprentice training in welding at the local college, lasting a mere 24 weeks and costing only $10 000; minimal tuition and opportunity costs. Graduate statistics show a 100% employment rate in this field with an average starting salary in Alberta of $48 000.

Looking at these two career options after high school, and comparing them utilizing a basic cost to salary ratio, I found that for every dollar an individual spent training to become a welder, they earned $4.8. However, in aviation, for every dollar spent training they would earn only $0.4. This means that that individual would earn twelve times more for every dollar spent training as a welder, than they would as a pilot.

The number of variables going into deciding to pursue a specific career are endless, and obviously it's not all about the money. However, looking at statistics like this, and being a young individual myself seriously considering a career in aviation, I can certainly understand why many might be turned away.
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Last edited by +RA on Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by LousyFisherman »

RealHigh wrote: Alternatively, they could go get pre-apprentice training in welding at the local college, lasting a mere 24 weeks and costing only $10 000; minimal tuition and opportunity costs. Graduate statistics show a 100% employment rate in this field with an average starting salary in Alberta of $48 000.
That's for a ticketed welder, after a 4 year apprenticeship with a total of I believe 48 weeks schooling (12 weeks/year).
While working as an apprentice I believe starting wage is $22-24/hour rising to 30-32/hour in the third and final year.

LF
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by +RA »

LF,

It must vary by location then. A friend of mine who went up to Fort Mac after completing a welding training program was earning $40/hr as an apprentice.

Again, I'm not necessarily stating that all my information is factual, rather simply what I have observed and heard.
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Last edited by +RA on Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tailwind W10
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by Tailwind W10 »

RealHigh wrote:LF,

It must vary from locations then. A friend of mine who went up to Fort Mac...

This is true. Most employers in Fort Mac pay a pretty sizable premium to get skilled people to work up there. Many pay these wages and house them on top of it. I've lost a couple of draftsmen lured by the big bucks, but the lifestyle there doesn't agree with everyone. Here in Edmonon, the wages for welders (and apprentaces) are very good, but not as good as the Fort.

Gerry
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by TheJudge »

LousyFisherman wrote:
RealHigh wrote:
Alternatively, they could go get pre-apprentice training in welding at the local college, lasting a mere 24 weeks and costing only $10 000; minimal tuition and opportunity costs. Graduate statistics show a 100% employment rate in this field with an average starting salary in Alberta of $48 000.


That's for a ticketed welder, after a 4 year apprenticeship with a total of I believe 48 weeks schooling (12 weeks/year).
While working as an apprentice I believe starting wage is $22-24/hour rising to 30-32/hour in the third and final year.

LF
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I thought $22-24 per hour was approximately 45k - 50k.

$22 per hour * 40 hours per week = $880 per week * 52 weeks per year = $45760 per year.
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by Meatservo »

I actually kind of like being a pilot.
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Re: Study shows career as a pilot becoming less attractive

Post by tallyho »

Sure, you can make more money welding, or on the rigs in Fort Mac. Carpenter could do pretty well in the good times too! But I'd way rather sit in a nice airplane, go to nice pleases, not be knee deep in mud, or wear 25lbs of clothing to stay warm all day. Sure there are better paid jobs out there, but there is waaay more to a good job than that.

Its a good job, its not easy, but good jobs never are!
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