Beaver Crash

[xsbank]

I was just about to add my 2 cents when Bandaid locked up: regardless of the cause of this accident, the sad loss of life and the loss to our community specifically should give us pause to reflect on how we do our jobs and how a strong committment to professionalism is so critical; this accident happened to a pilot at the peak of his expertise and something awful happened that even he could not overcome. Please be diligent and take nothing for granted - if it can happen to the best of us, the rest of us need to use even more care. If we can't ever understand the cause of this accident, we can at least celebrate the life of one of our stalwarts and remember that old saying, "There but for the grace of God go I."

[CpnCrunch]

I'd like to continue a discussion on safety features that was brought up in the other thread. Some people mentioned that the Beaver has a belly fuel tank, which is likely to rupture and start a fire in the event of an accident. It does sound like a 'kill switch' wouldn't be much help in preventing a post-crash fire. Do the new Viking turbo Beavers still have a belly tank?

Also regarding wearing lifejackets: it does seem to me to be a good idea to wear them for all phases of flight in a floatplane. The 'passengers might inflate them before exiting' doesn't really make sense. First: if you're doing a proper briefing that shouldn't be a problem. Second: have there actually been any accidents where that has happened? Some of the smaller operators do apparently allow you to wear a lifejacket, but the large ones don't. Here's a question for anyone who thinks you can put on a lifejacket after a crash: have you actually watched anyone put on a lifejacket? Last time I wore a Mustang horseshoe lifejacket I had help another person who was having trouble with it. It took me about 10 seconds to figure out how to put it on, but this person was struggling for a few minutes before I helped him with it. There's no way in hell he would have got it on in an emergency.

[All Sides]

Great post Xsbank.

CpnCrunch, I don't have the number, but I believe a lot of post accident fatalities are from drowning in floatplane accidents.

[Just another canuck]

I've done an under water egress course and I had a hell of a time getting out myself. About half of us actually swam down towards the bottom of the pool the first time. I can take a guess at the average age (and weight) of most of my passengers in the Otter or Beaver and if I were to go upside down, I highly doubt any of them would get out before taking in a breath of water. Perhaps the fellas at the back door and maybe the guy sitting up front but even for them, I tend to think it would be a long shot at survival.

I don't think wearing the life jacket is a good idea. People panic. Proper instruction on where they are and how to use them is the best course of action. Take the life jacket with you on the way out of the plane. Even if you inflate it without actually getting it on will provide you with a means of buoyancy.

[GUMPS]

I agree on the Life Jacket topic. Wearing one in an seaplane is another recipe for disaster. I have a hard enough time getting a passenger to understand why I remind them to exit the aircraft before inflating the PFD. I can't imagine what would happen when everybody on board is in a panic pulling red tabs as the aircraft goes over on it's back in the water.

[Redneck_pilot86]

If you include in your briefing that passengers wearing lifejackets, who inflate them prior to exiting the aircraft in an emergency, WILL DIE, the message seems to sink in.

[lost in the north]

I like the idea of the passengers wearing a life jacket. I did the under water egress course and simulated trying to get out of a wrecked aircraft, with a broken arm. I could not hold on to the lifejacket pouch, Let alone open the plastic pouch to get the life jacket out to slip over my head.

[All Sides]

I like the idea of the passengers wearing a life jacket. I did the under water egress course and simulated trying to get out of a wrecked aircraft, with a broken arm. I could not hold on to the lifejacket pouch, Let alone open the plastic pouch to get the life jacket out to slip over my head.

Admittedly I haven't taken the dunker training, but I agree with you lost in the north that wearing a life jacket makes sense. You wear one in a boat, it would make sense that you would wear one in a plane landing at 50-80 mph. What could possibly go wrong....

Those yellow ones in a bag are crap IMO, but a Mustang Inflatable PFD seems to me would work. I know float pilots that wear them already. When I flew floats I used one of those Mustang Fisherman Vests inflatables, but use the PDF's for kayaking. They are very portable and lightweight.

[All Sides]

[

quote="CpnCrunch"]I'd like to continue a discussion on safety features that was brought up in the other thread. Some people mentioned that the Beaver has a belly fuel tank, which is likely to rupture and start a fire in the event of an accident. It does sound like a 'kill switch' wouldn't be much help in preventing a post-crash fire. Do the new Viking turbo Beavers still have a belly tank?

The majority of the fuel in a DHC-2 is in 3 belly tanks, there are 2 tip tanks as well but usually aren't used unless you are on a long flight. Some don't have tip tanks. According to Vikings website all the JET A is in the belly.

[Rowdy]

A lot of the drownings that occur when aircraft are overturned in the water are a result of heads/faces impacting the dash or other parts of the cabin. Being knocked unconscious doesnt help with egress. While I agree with the fact the little yellow sealed-in-plastic-bag inflatables are utterly useless in this environment, I'm still not sold on the wearing of PFDs and other floatation devices as being the direction that will improve overall survivability. If you are unconcious after a bonk to the ol' heidelberg, a life jacket/pfd is sort of useless to you while submerged.

There are many factors that can help.. for example. four point harnesses being mandated for the front seats of all float equipped aircraft. Perhaps some changes to the seat mounts as well, as you'll find that they tend to break from the floors under most impacts. The next being changes to location of door latches and exits (I know quite a few of them are being implemented for the beav here on the coast) and their respective ease of use in an upset. I for one am a fan of the door handle mod incorporated with the pop out windows!

It would also be wise to set some standards for navigational equipment in the commercial VFR float environment. MOST of the machines here have a handheld gps and a basic 6 pack at best. Has anyone seen the well equipped alaskan machines? Why are we not moving in that direction for safety? right. Cost.

Its funny how some get all wrapped up in patching one area when for the most part the root cause is overlooked and should be fixed as well.

In relation to this particular and sombering accident, it would be dificult to mitigate a post crash fire. While I agree in some aircraft a battery cut off would be ideal. I'm not sure it would be effective, or efficient in the dhc-2.

[jeta1]

There are many factors that can help.. for example. four point harnesses being mandated for the front seats of all float equipped aircraft.

The main problem is that many pilots do not wear shoulder harnesses even when they are available. In fact, if your seat belt is configured with a shoulder harness, CARs mandates that the shoulder harness must be used as it is part of the defined "seat-belt". Therefore wearing the shoulder harness is not a best practice, it is a current regulation. It also makes plane sense.

[xsbank]

Even if shoulder harnesses are available in a Beav (its been so long, do they have them?), to keep the pilot from smacking the dash with his forehead (that's how you can twll if a Beav has been rebuilt, no need to look in the tech log, just look for wrinkles in the dash, the mechanics just bash them out and sometimes paint them) you would also need headrests to prevent whiplash on the rebound.

I have a vision of the dock at Vancouver with rows of pilots hanging out the front doors, garrotted by their shoulder belts. Ever jumped down out of a Beav (or a Stoneboat) and forgotten to take off your headset?

[Just another canuck]

Shoulder harnesses in the Beaver (at least the one that I flew) made it a pain in the arse to get the rudders up. I couldn't quite reach them and then the damn thing would never recoil. I'm sure a new, proper set would solve the problem, but of course, that would cost money.

[Rowdy]

Shoulder harnesses in the Beaver (at least the one that I flew) made it a pain in the arse to get the rudders up. I couldn't quite reach them and then the damn thing would never recoil. I'm sure a new, proper set would solve the problem, but of course, that would cost money.

Therein lies the problem. Cost conscious operators. I flew one that had a shoulder strap for the pilot but only a lap belt for the cojoe seat. WTF!? And even then, a lot of the guys don't put their straps on.. All I can do is shake my head.

One single shoulder strap is not enough in my opinion. Has anyone ever watched the slow-mo test dummies in automobile tests? I was shown a comparison when down at SIR for a drivers day that had a side by side look at a single shoulder strap versus a 4 point harness. Mind blowing.

Sorry for going a little off topic with your thread XS, but I figure while we were discussing survivable accidents with the beaver, it would be wise to point out the LOC issues that lead to drownings and could also be a hindrance in post crash fires.

[CpnCrunch]

The BAS inertia reel shoulder harnesses are really good - they don't stop you leaning forward. They don't seem to be STCd for the Beaver though.

[adhc2]

All these various saftey measures have merit indeed, however in this case as often occurs with Beaver crashes the engine displaces the foot wells and often traps the front pax and pilot. Loss of life is always tragic especially when it is a friend and mentor.

Too many lately farewell old friend RIP

[PilotDAR]

They [shoulder harnesses] don't seem to be STCd for the Beaver though.

The installation of shoulder harnesses can be accomplished in nearly any light airplane in accordance with AC43.13 "specified data". STC is not required. The FAA and TC get some things right, and making it really easy to legally install shoulder harnesses is one of them.

I told the new owner of a flying boat that I would only type train him if shoulder harnesses were installed in it, and they are being installed. If you have smashed your head, you are very much less likely to help yourself exit. A friend of mine received serious facial injuries in the crash, and spent months in the hospital. He was not wearing the available shoulder harness - and he had minutes before the crash to know that he would and to put it on - and still did not.

Life jackets - ALWAYS! Yes, I brief my passengers to only inflate out of the plane - mostly to ease exit, though also to reduce the chance of damage to an inflated life jacket exiting. Obviously, do not use self inflating types.

I have flown many searches over local lakes for missing boaters and snowmobiliers. Those who were in the water without a life jacket were not found alive, those who were wearing one were found safe - 100% of my times searching, over 22 years. No one water flies with me without a life jacket and a briefing.

[Rookie50]

The 182 I recently got has the BAS in them, and I am happy it does. I think they should be in land planes too.

[Diadem]

Passengers wearing their life jackets and inflating them in the cabin directly led to fatalities in the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 961.

Many passengers died because they inflated their life jackets in the cabin,[11][13] causing them to be trapped inside by the rising water. This led to future notices about not inflating the vests before exiting the plane.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_ ... Flight_961
Giving a briefing about not inflating the jacket inside the aircraft is all well and good, but people are stupid; they panic and don't think rationally. By inflating the jacket inside the aircraft, they're not only trapping themselves, but also impeding the escape of others. In my opinion, it's better that one person drown than everyone does.

[PilotDAR]

In my opinion, it's better that one person drown than everyone does.

To be relevant it is necessary to distinguish between the risks of a ditching on an airliner, and flipping a floatplane. Yes, an inflated lifejacket in a cabin creates a risk for the wearer, and everyone trying to exit behind them. Adherence to the briefing to not inflate it 'till outside is important.

But, to not allow (or require) the wearing of the lifejacket because of the possibility of that risk, introduces a much greater risk. It's about the same as saying that you should not wear seatbelts, 'cause someone might not get it undone, and then that row is blocked.

Airlines will instruct the donning of a lifejacket at the first indication that a water landing is possible. In a floatplane, a water landing is extremely likely, so it seems a very clear message that a lifejacket is a require safely item.

I have been directly involved in search an rescue on Lake Simcoe for more than 20 years (including flying a lot of OPP searches before the helicopter lived nearby. EVERY person I can think of, for whom we searched who was not wearing a lifejacket drowned. Everyone wearing one was found alive.

If you exit an inverted floatplane with a packaged lifejacket in your hand, with the intent of donning after exit, you have tied up one hand that you're really going to need, and so when you drop the lifejacket, at best you'll have to search for it, at worst it has sunk.

While onboard a watercraft, I, and all my passengers, are wearing their lifejackets - I don't want to have to share mine, when we're finally out! If a commercial floatplane operator would not provide and let me wear one, I would not fly....

[CFR]

In my opinion, it's better that one person drown than everyone does.

If you exit an inverted floatplane with a packaged lifejacket in your hand, with the intent of donning after exit, you have tied up one hand that you're really going to need, and so when you drop the lifejacket, at best you'll have to search for it, at worst it has sunk.

Interesting video which shares your thoughts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZeCGcB-uN4

[frozen solid]

Many of the passengers on Ethiopian 961, which ditched near a resort in the Comoros Islands, died because they inflated their lifejackets and were unable to exit the aircraft. Admittedly this wasn't a beaver, but still.

[PilotDAR]

Many of the passengers on Ethiopian 961, which ditched near a resort in the Comoros Islands, died because they inflated their lifejackets and were unable to exit the aircraft. Admittedly this wasn't a beaver, but still.

Hmmm, did the opposite to the crew instruction, and died because of that mis action. Not desirable, but predictable when instructions are disregarded.

The fact that a passenger might disregard instructions, is not a reason to no longer provide safety equipment for them! We don't provide any seat belts, 'cause some don't use them?

[Prairiefire]

What's more important, getting out of the aircraft or having a life jacket to use after you're out. I'm not trolling here, in all fairness how many float accidents that happen on the water and stay in water deep enough where a life jacket could be needed end up in a situation where the aircraft sinks? I'm not sure of the stats or if you could find them, but it seems logical to me that the floats will stay mostly intact, at least one of them enough where 4-5-6-7....21 people could use it as a floatation device. Thoughts?

[GUMPS]

Maybe I didn't read this right, since I only took the time to skim through it but DAR are you saying you won't fly on a commercial floatplane unless the provide you with a life jacket to wear during the flight? Can you tell me any operators out there that have their passengers wear them during the flight? I've flown floats from quebec to the wet coast and have never worked for a company that had this rule?

Call me selfish or whatever but I don't want everyone in the beaver with me wearing a life jacket. I can say it and make it clear to the passengers "If you inflate the life jacket inside the aircraft you and possibly anyone behind you is going to go with the aircraft and DIE" but I still don't trust that the moment the aircraft is in a situation that isn't going to result in landing on the floats and getting to a dock someone is going to panic and pull the tabs. I mean how often do you say "keep your seat belts on until we're on the dock" and the moment you're off the step the guys behind you are unclipping their seat belts?