Making a great Salary now, should I move?

[SgtStroka]

I have always been keen to get on at AC. However, currently making 100K+ a year working 4 days a week. Its not bad at all. I like where I live, however a position at Air Canada I could commute quite comfortably. Travel internationally a bit more like I used to when I was young. Do I want to take that big of a hit to my salary/benefits? I see what the starting pay is, I don't know the pay structure for the rest of the years though, Mainline or Rouge. I know whatever I choose I'll be happy. In the interview It was mentioned I would probably be taking a pay cut, as do most new hires.

Am I crazy to be taking a pay cut less then half of what Im already making? Im sure there are some captains here who have made the big decision.

Any folks on here have a tough decision to make in regards to making the move? I also have no Family to support. Just wondering what some of the rationale was in the decision making.

SS

[C208]

If you like your job, and you get paid well to do it, What is there to think about? Is flying a bigger aircraft and sacrificing a large part of your salary going to make you any happier? Probably not.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Travel with your friends/family on your off time; it's a lot more fun than 24 hours in Paris with a crew of slam-clickers. You say you like your job, you say you like your location, you like your circumstances; what are you missing from the grand scheme? Are you getting tired of people asking when you'll work for Air Canada? Do you want a cute hat? What's really pulling you away from your current situation? I couldn't rationalize it, myself.

[scopiton]

what are your perspective at your current job, could you envision to stay there the next 10 years ?
is the benefit package worth it ?
looking for more operational comfort ?
looking for a free narrow body TR and then move to middle east or china or Oceania ?
you're the only one to know.

[Old fella]

"Paris with a crew of slam-clickers"

What's slam-clickers. Honestly, never heard of it

[Iliopolus_1]

slam-clicker
People who upon checking into a hotel with others remain in their rooms instead of socializing. Used by airline crew to describe those who don't go out.

Slam - as in closing the door
Click - as in locking it immediately

[Soar]

I was (am?) more or less in the exact same position as you. I'm currently on the left seat living overseas and making just slightly shy of 200k usd/year (net, not gross) flying the newest and biggest planes in the sky right now. Honestly size never really mattered to me (my ego is fine as it is - really), although flying new and cutting edge planes does peak my interest (I'm also a huge geek/nerd).

I've very seriously considered AC as well and to be perfectly honest, the decision really bothered me. For me it ultimately came down to whether or not I wanted an amazing life style (also living at home, ie - AC), or an amazing professional life (where I am now - although the rosters are definitely tuffer then my friends at AC). For me personally, life style, home and family are most important (no kids yet), but at the end of the day, I'd be taking a HUGE pay cut and also start out at the very bottom of a very long and slow moving seniority list. I thought about the incremental (actually I looked at everything has a whole, from so many, many different angles) pay increase with seniority, etc at AC, but even the highest paid wide body Capt at AC doesn't make what I make now, after those pesky taxes.

I'm still in the first half of my 30s, so it's still an option, but honestly I don't think I can ever justify moving back to Canada to work. Like I said, rosters, family, home are paramount, but at what cost?

I feel better now after writing this, hope it somehow help you too!

I have always been keen to get on at AC. However, currently making 100K+ a year working 4 days a week. Its not bad at all. I like where I live, however a position at Air Canada I could commute quite comfortably. Travel internationally a bit more like I used to when I was young. Do I want to take that big of a hit to my salary/benefits? I see what the starting pay is, I don't know the pay structure for the rest of the years though, Mainline or Rouge. I know whatever I choose I'll be happy. In the interview It was mentioned I would probably be taking a pay cut, as do most new hires.

Am I crazy to be taking a pay cut less then half of what Im already making? Im sure there are some captains here who have made the big decision.

Any folks on here have a tough decision to make in regards to making the move? I also have no Family to support. Just wondering what some of the rationale was in the decision making.

SS

[Old fella]

slam-clicker
People who upon checking into a hotel with others remain in their rooms instead of socializing. Used by airline crew to describe those who don't go out.

Slam - as in closing the door
Click - as in locking it immediately

Interesting concept, see ya can learn something new on this site - I do anyway(at times). I would imagine with a big airline like AC and the vast number of pilots and different aircraft types and associated mobility between types domestic and international, one would get to see all personalities, whims, moods, idiosyncrasies and the like during their entire career flying for AC, young and old, front and back end crews.

[aV1aTOr]

In the end you have to ask yourself what's most important in life. Money? Location? Family? Lifestyle? Pension/Benefits? Airplane?
Sounds like you would rather bring home the big dough than work in Canada. This answers your question. AC will take you ~6-8 years (depending on type) to make +100k (gross mind you).
From my experience, I never applied to any overseas carriers since I won't raise my family outside of Canada even for $20k/month. Life is too short and living near family is worth more than 10 times my paycheck to me. Therefore AC was the best option possible. Living in Canada, flying decent equipment, flying a decent schedule, with decent $$ in the not-so-distant future. (It also helps immensely that my move to AC was a wash financially coming from my previous employer, however I am supporting a family of 3).
It all boils down to: what's most important to you?

[SgtStroka]

Thank you everyone for the replies.

Happy to know I share the same thoughts as many of you.

Sounds like you would rather bring home the big dough than work in Canada.

Still living in Canada. I have the money, location, lifestyle, pension/benefits. As Change in Latitudes mentioned, there is a hint of that, "When are you going to go to AC" A part of me wants to see what the AC life is. I lived vicariously though family members in the airlines, however they were at it 15-20 years before me when things were different. Sure I had a dream of wearing a funny hat. But the dream has fissled a little. Chasing bigger airplanes has done nothing but disappoint me in the past. You never know your going to get that upgrade until your little nose is pressed agains the cockpit window.

I have a fair opinion of AC, I believe i share the same one as many many folks working there. Good place to be, potential to make some very good money. Can live in a Major city, or commute or whatever wets your whistle.

I have met many of these Slam-Clickers while doing the corporate side of my job. Always on a time Limit, check in check out.

Once I say no to AC, is the door closed for good?

There is some appeal to the Airlines, get in the airplane and go. I liked that lifestyle I had when I was overseas!

Thanks four the input folks.
SS

[MeAndMrPenguin]

I always advise people to go. Give it a try. It's easier to go back to where you were, than wish you were at AC 5-10 years later and never tasted it.

You will in all likelihood not crack $100 000 for 6+ years.

[flyloose]

Well this is highly subjective on my part, but if you're in your later 40's it might be a tough one to justify financially, especially with the DC plan going forward. Early 40's, I might still seriously consider it...again, IMHO

[gearDown2green]

I'm kinda having the same dilema here ...

If you pur things in perspective, the 6 first years your gross at AC or LCC will be around 360.000
Meanwhile you could be living with your family and making up yo 600.000 depending on your pay increase ...

So that's already a huge difference if you are in your 40's and trying to plan a retirement ...

In the same time MeAndMrPinguin have a point here : if you want to try it, it has to be now because you might not get the opportunity again ...

So depending on your age, your current company : would they allow you to quit and come back in 2 years ? your lifestyle etc ...

Wish you the best !

[SgtStroka]

Mid 30s myself. However at my company if you leave, its not that the door is closed.....its just that nobody ever leaves. Well, excect myself possibly. They don't leave cause they know they have a good thing going. Part of my judgment seems confused, EVERYONE I know says, "Big Leagues" "Flag Carrier" "Uniform". I laugh to myself a little cause half of them are not pilots. The other half are flying King Airs/Navajos in the Bush, (Nothing wrong with that at all). However they seem to believe its crazy to turn this opportunity down.

I like that you guys are sharing your insite/personal experiences. Glad im not alone in some of these tough decisions.

Im not too young to think about retirement. But, your never to young to start saving.

[TheStig]

Well this is highly subjective on my part, but if you're in your later 40's it might be a tough one to justify financially, especially with the DC plan going forward. Early 40's, I might still seriously consider it...again, IMHO

Food for thought, but the DC plan might actually provide a better return than the DB for a pilot starting in their 40's and planning on retiring before they're in their 70's. The DB plan is heavily weighted with years of service and high best earnings. A DB pension based on retiring with 15 years of service and retiring as a narrow body Captain or wide body FO is a fraction of that of a 35 year pension of a Wide body Captain. Aside from that there is no penalty for leaving early from the DC plan should a pilot decide to leave before 65.

[Xander]

I had a guy on my PIT course who was flying the 727 for a cargo company as a captain. He was 46 at the time with a family to feed...Yeah. He lasted a year at AC. Couldn't afford it I suppose.

That being said the hat is kinda nice. Why don't you join us?

[MeAndMrPenguin]

Lets face it, most pilots get in to taste the big stuff. I knew thats what I wanted from the get go. Is it what I thought, not totally, but I still like it.

I would sit down with my current employer and have a polite chat. You really have nothing to lose. They expect some to want to go. They will sell you on staying, you will be all torn, and in the end you win either way. Why? If you don't go, you show extreme loyalty, and did what he the other 90 percent didn't do, and stay. If you did go, you have a knowledge of your options to go back.

I saw a good friend go major and turn back after a short while. The previous gig was too good. I am sure the 60K pay hit hurt too.

There is less pilots coming up beneath us and the minimums at the majors has slowly dropped. there will be jobs to go to if you have time. And the bonus, having been someone who went and left, you are very unlikely to go to the majors again.

I can tell you, that I quit playing hockey early after shoulder surgery. I was never going all the way, but to this day I wonder how far I could have. I'll never know.

[Old fella]

Well this is highly subjective on my part, but if you're in your later 40's it might be a tough one to justify financially, especially with the DC plan going forward. Early 40's, I might still seriously consider it...again, IMHO

Food for thought, but the DC plan might actually provide a better return than the DB for a pilot starting in their 40's and planning on retiring before they're in their 70's. The DB plan is heavily weighted with years of service and high best earnings. A DB pension based on retiring with 15 years of service and retiring as a narrow body Captain or wide body FO is a fraction of that of a 35 year pension of a Wide body Captain. Aside from that there is no penalty for leaving early from the DC plan should a pilot decide to leave before 65.

I can't add much to the conversation on joining AC from a flying prospective other that to say whatever route you head keep a careful eye on whatever pension(DC or DB) heads your way, guard it jealously. When you get my age and you are heading in that direction, your pension is your life-line. Pros/cons for each DB vs DC, I am on DB and I know exactly how much per month I will get and not subject to market fluctuations. However there are disadvantages, I took a hit on age and length of service and when age 65 comes by, my monthly DB will be reduced due CCP claw-back. I really won't loose any money but nil gains either. Myself and the lady made RRSP Money Market contributions over the past number of years and we took quite a hit on that fund from the last major downturn a few years back.

If I wore a younger man's clothes and airline was my lot in life, AC it would be

[doorhandle27]

I went through this same thought process some time ago now. Having gone through the interview and medical, I sat down and thought about it for several months before I actually got a call for a course date. I worked out the math, looked for as much info as I could about the sked, tried to sort out what the new contract meant, and looked at all that was happening with Rouge and AC. After I figured out what my budget and life would look like over the first 5 years before I would be back to earning what I was that day, I thought about what plans I would have to put off for a few years, wedding, house, and kids. I thought about what the pension might look like in 30 years from now and what my retirement might look like both at AC and not.

These are tough decisions to make, I know people that have gone and aren't happy, I also know people that didn't go and aren't happy. So, sit down, work through everything involved and ask yourself, will I be happy knowing everything that I have now at work will change.

I know the capt that left CJ and went to AC, let's just say he's had a challenging couple of years but he seems happy now where he was before.

In the end, I turned down the offer. Some people thought I was an idiot, some didn't, but that doesn't matter. I'm where I want to be in my personal life at home, I make a good paycheque, do some good flying, and spend at least half of the month at home. Is it perfect? Who cares, seek perfection and you'll never find it. Does it have a great balance? Sure does. Can I afford to go on vacation, get married, have kids, ski all winter, go to see a hockey game here and there and pack away a lot of cash for the future, yes. Is my job as secure as AC, I would venture no. Am I happy, yes, is the wife, very much so.

I wise CP once told me, if you're happy at home AND work, you've figured out the secret.

[watermeth]

Food for thought, but the DC plan might actually provide a better return than the DB for a pilot starting in their 40's and planning on retiring before they're in their 70's.

would you mind elaborating Stig, I'm curious to understand how starting a DC plan after 40 is more interesting ?
Given the retirement funding at AC and the debt the plan is facing, is your money more guaranteed/protected in a DC ?
thanks

[TheStig]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to ask? A pension expert could write a book on these two pension schemes, but I'm not an expert and certainly not qualified to write that book, but some of the differences are obvious.

In a perfect (socialist) world everyone would have a DB plan. In that world we start working for a company at a young age, work there our whole life and upon retirement continue to earn about 70% of out pre-retirement income. Some people still live in that world, but I can't think of too many who's paycheques don't come from taxpayers.

All that I was trying to get at I suppose is that there are advantages to joining the DC plan over the DB plan, mostly because we don't live in that socialist world anymore. Air Canada isn't a pilots first employer anymore and isn't always their last either. Much like seniority, DB pensions aren't portable to other airlines and as such Air Canada pilots have watched wages erode year after year to hopefully keep the pension plan (and the airline attached to it) afloat.

Pilots under the DB plan are faced with big penalties if they wish to leave before 60 or for a pilot hired over 40, before they turn 65. A pilot hired under the DC plan can leave and take their contributions at anytime they find a better paying job.

If Air Canada were to go bankrupt and liquidate members of the DC plan would walk away with every penny in their plan, while the DB members would become creditors in a lengthy court battle (Nortel). I'm not saying the DC plan is perfect, it isn't. the companies contribution in the first 2 years should be higher, and pilot pay is too low for too many years for a pilot to effectively build equity in their plan. However, this should be considered a starting point and pilots hired post-FOS will have a different set of priorities when it comes time to negotiate.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Disregard.

[captainsweaty]

For me the decision was easy, it was what I wanted, the sacrifices are there and you are aware of them. I often write out how much money I've missed out on by coming to AC but its more of an exercise in reflection rather then the thought that I made an incorrect decision. An important question Ive asked of others in a similar dilemma is "can you see yourself retiring where you are now?" If yes then the decision is easy.

Mid 30s myself. However at my company if you leave, its not that the door is closed.....its just that nobody ever leaves. Well, excect myself possibly. They don't leave cause they know they have a good thing going. Part of my judgment seems confused, EVERYONE I know says, "Big Leagues" "Flag Carrier" "Uniform". I laugh to myself a little cause half of them are not pilots. The other half are flying King Airs/Navajos in the Bush, (Nothing wrong with that at all). However they seem to believe its crazy to turn this opportunity down.

I like that you guys are sharing your insite/personal experiences. Glad im not alone in some of these tough decisions.

Im not too young to think about retirement. But, your never to young to start saving.

[aV1aTOr]

Brief overview of the DC plan, for reference's sake:
If you contribute the maximum 6%, taking into account AC's contribution matching schedule, as well as Revenue Canada's annual contribution limits, and assuming a predictable salary schedule, after 25 years of service you would have ~$500k at 0% growth. Assuming 5% growth over that time you would have ~$900k. 30 years of service at 5% growth yields ~$1.3m.
If you live til you're 90, you would probably be better off with the predictability of the DB plan.
However one major benefit of the DC plan no one here has mentioned is the DC plan is YOURS. So whether you quit early, or kick the bucket, it's still yours. If you and your spouse pack it in at 75, and you still have half a mil in your DC account, that becomes part of your estate. In the case of the DB plan, poof. It's done.
Hope this kind of info helps to inform anyone trying to make the big decision. In the end, DB or DC, it's nice to have something provided by the company. Not that we have a choice anyways

[Old fella]

Brief overview of the DC plan, for reference's sake:
If you contribute the maximum 6%, taking into account AC's contribution matching schedule, as well as Revenue Canada's annual contribution limits, and assuming a predictable salary schedule, after 25 years of service you would have ~$500k at 0% growth. Assuming 5% growth over that time you would have ~$900k. 30 years of service at 5% growth yields ~$1.3m.
If you live til you're 90, you would probably be better off with the predictability of the DB plan.
However one major benefit of the DC plan no one here has mentioned is the DC plan is YOURS. So whether you quit early, or kick the bucket, it's still yours. If you and your spouse pack it in at 75, and you still have half a mil in your DC account, that becomes part of your estate. In the case of the DB plan, poof. It's done.
Hope this kind of info helps to inform anyone trying to make the big decision. In the end, DB or DC, it's nice to have something provided by the company. Not that we have a choice anyways

Also with a DC you are not subject to claw-back(ie DB pension monthly reduction) at 65 when you get your CCP. I am retired with DB as there will be a reduction at 65 for me, I technically won't loose any money but won't gain either. I am gaining now as I took CCP at a reduced rate 60-65 age, however I will have a higher tax personal exemption at 65 so it will all balance out. People on DC(as I understand it) will not have the CCP issues as I will. Pro/con of each as many here indicated.