This guy should start an airline

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Bede
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This guy should start an airline

Post by Bede »

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CpnCrunch
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by CpnCrunch »

What a twat.
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Inverted2
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by Inverted2 »

Work for free? Sounds like a Bank$ter and CEO's wet dream. Maybe they will lead by example?
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complexintentions
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by complexintentions »

You know you're in trouble when no less than the chief of your central bank is advocating slave labour.

Sharpen up those pitchforks and dust off those guillotines...nah, Canadians are too passive. Ok, no group hug then.
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midwingcrisis
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by midwingcrisis »

The aviation industry in Canada has witnessed this type of arrangement for a number of decades. My first exposure was 33 years ago in a remote area of this country. The approach was not induced by any of the local operators, that at the time were providing a very generous renumeration package, but by a recently minted commercial/seaplane pilot wanting to "build time". Needless to say the applicant was not successful in furthering his career locally.

In this economy and industry mindset, would this not be an expedited method to market one's self say to a 1500 Hr mark?
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FISH-FLY
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by FISH-FLY »

Although I don't agree with a "work for free" environment, what gets lost in a general comment like Poloz made, and the predictable reaction, is that many un/under employed young people severely lack any consistent work history. Many are coming out of university programs ( some very useless degrees as well ) having not held down consistent jobs throughout ( regardless of relevance ). A steady work history from youth on up through whatever form of post secondary school school goes a long way with prospective career oriented employers.

I believe that the intention of Polozs' message was aimed politely at those who still feel that an education entitles you to a good job. There is more to proving your productive worth than a useless degree. References and a proven commitment to working and progressing in a job ( McDonald's or otherwise) on the way up in life is what really matters in the job market. I too have a useless degree and it has been my steady work history, natural progression, and references that have allowed me to achieve a good career position.

Volunteering or participating in intern- type programs may help these people put something more on their resume than a BA in philosophy. As far as aviation is concerned, young pilots have a relevant education ( commercial license, etc. ) but the company may want them to occupy a (paid, although low paid) ground position initially, and having a work history in customer service or labour type jobs will be helpful to the resume in securing this initial job. Not having any work history leaves the company with nothing to use in terms of candidate screening.

Anyway, long winded but get a menial job at 16 and work through your educating years, progressing as you go and you are less likely to be a young un/under employed. Working through school proves character as well.
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cgzro
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by cgzro »

When competing for jobs you need to differenciate yourself. When I was studying computer science many moons ago I wrote some software and gave it away for free.. Freeware.. Ended up helping me get several job offers and was a major topic of discussion in the interviews. Basically it was a good investment.

What other solution do you propose in a market where there are many candidates for each job?

Now as an employer I will always need a way to pick among many good candidates, i cant think of a better way than relavant experience as a volunteer.
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DonutHole
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by DonutHole »

Hire the most qualified applicant. If they don't work out hire the next guy.
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YYCAME
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by YYCAME »

Volunteering is good but I think the critical distinction is volunteering for a non-profit. There was an organization recently that was interested in my 'volunteering' to do a job for a profitable partner which needless to say I was not impressed with.
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habs.fan
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by habs.fan »

Whenever I see something like this, or a post about how people work for free or buy jobs, I can only think that the job market is doing a perfect job of regulating itself. For every one of the umpteen thousand CPLs issued every year to hotshot top guns that feel entitled to walk on to a 1900 at 50K/year with their 200 hours, there are another couple hundred thousand University graduates that suffer from the same disease; expecting work to come to them. The reality is that there are no "good times" - even the boomers probably thought they were hard pressed to find work, it wasn't a case of walking out the door and getting slapped in the face with job offers - and the people who gets jobs are quite simply (and ironically) the ones that work. Anyone can spend 40 hours/week going to class and then studying and coming out 3 years later with a student loan and a paper to put on the wall - it's the ones that bust their asses in clubs, societies, at events and conferences and part-time jobs that end up with the employment at the end of their degree, because they've worked their tail off to make the contacts, build the bridges and develop the discipline needed to get a big boy job in the real world. Whenever someone tells me I'm lucky for having found a flying job, I gently slide into the conversation the fact that I was working in aviation for 4 years while I did my flight training, and I probably shook enough hands in that time to drain 600 bottles of Purell. So I was lucky to be missing weekends with the family to work at the flying club. So I was lucky to spend a few days here and there at an aviation conference shaking hands. Sure I loved it the whole way, but that's because this is what I want to spend my life doing. When I see someone's CV with literally JUST their schooling or flight training on it being related to aviation, I wonder - did this guy just wake up one morning after drinking a bottle of whiskey and watching an Ice Pilots marathon and decide to drop 60K at Moncton Flight College to become a DC-3 Copilot? Same thing goes with these kids with Geology degrees. I don't know the first thing about Geology, but if I wanted to be a geologist from Saskatchewan, I'd be best buds with every other geology student AND every Geologist in Saskatchewan, Alberta and Manitoba before I finished my first year at Geology school. That way when graduation day comes, I've got some contacts, some good friends and maybe some work experience to separate me from the million other graduates.

I don't know if I agree with Mr. Poloz encouraging working for free, but I would encourage getting out of a parents' basement and spending 60+ hours per week looking for a job to make up for the 3+ years wasted in a post-secondary institution doing zero networking. Either way, it's no skin off my hide - the market is going to regulate itself, the hardest & smartest workers will end up with the jobs, others will worry about working for free or for "experience" or whatever you want to call it. From an employers perspective - who would you rather: the cream of the crop that you need to pay, but who will make money for you in the long run OR the guy that's willing to work for free and doesn't understand the value of a hard day's work or the value of money. Some companies will hire #2 for free, but by the time they divide their management's time up to hire, train, supervise/babysit these "free" employees - are they really coming out ahead? Tough call.
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complexintentions
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by complexintentions »

Some very good points habs.fan.

I think comparing to boomers is impossible though - they really didn't have the same employment environment as the current job-seekers. Globalization was not the same force then it is now, nor technology, nor population levels.

All of the talk of working harder and making more sacrifices is valid, but it doesn't really address the elephant in the room, which is that by 2050 there will be another 2 billion people on the planet to compete for jobs. Jobs that are rapidly being eliminated by technology. Which degree or trade exactly, will be considered useful versus useless when there are ten equally credentialed applicants for every job, and nine of them come from somewhere that makes them willing to work for a fraction of the wage? You're correct that the job market is acting perfectly, which means wages, benefits, stability, and security are all stagnating or in decline.

When the line on the graph representing population growth is going up, while the number of jobs is going down, I have to wonder exactly how anyone can consider that employment rates will improve in the higher labour cost economies? It is a global economy now. Canadians are competing with the world and frankly, not doing a great job. Only our natural resources have camouflaged that fact. The oil price plunge is revealing the cracks.

(PS In the five minute it took me to write this, another 255 babies were born in India). :shock:
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hangar3
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by hangar3 »

As an recently graduated mechanical engineer (with 1-2 years experience working summers and internships mind you), I can attest that it's still very hard to find a job.

Especially one that you want. (Which I think is part of the problem here). I mean I'm working, it's still engineering, but not exactly what I want to do. But I gotta live.

What I took him as saying was that even if you're unemployed, at least try to do something useful with your time. I can't argue with that.
I can't see how you'd move out on your own in those conditions though.
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LousyFisherman
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by LousyFisherman »

complexintentions wrote:Some very good points habs.fan.

I think comparing to boomers is impossible though - they really didn't have the same employment environment as the current job-seekers. Globalization was not the same force then it is now, nor technology, nor population levels.

Snip ....
You are quite right. As a tail end boomer, at age 19 there was unemployment of 18% and interest rates of 22%.
It took me 6 months to get a job as a labourer. Of course I was already moved out.

1986, oil at $9/barrel, it was sure easy to find a job then too.

But your right, todays generation has it extra difficult. It must be hard to turn down all those advertised jobs at $12-$15/hour
(true from BC through to NWO, I havent been east lately)

And it's funny, I know a bunch of 18-22 year olds who are as competent as any of me and my peers were :)
They are all working of course.

Let them rot in their parents basement if they have that little initiative and training.

Poloz should have to work for free for a year if he thinks it is such a good idea.

IMHO
LF
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by Rowdy »

LousyFisherman wrote: But your right, todays generation has it extra difficult. It must be hard to turn down all those advertised jobs at $12-$15/hour
(true from BC through to NWO, I havent been east lately)
You will struggle to live off 12-15/hr on the coast even in ma and pa's basement so it's not a fair comparison. A decade ago maybe..
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by DonutHole »

Didn't Seattle just pass 15 dollar min wage? I started aviation at 16 bucks.
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by complexintentions »

LousyFisherman wrote:
complexintentions wrote:Some very good points habs.fan.

I think comparing to boomers is impossible though - they really didn't have the same employment environment as the current job-seekers. Globalization was not the same force then it is now, nor technology, nor population levels.

Snip ....
You are quite right. As a tail end boomer, at age 19 there was unemployment of 18% and interest rates of 22%.
It took me 6 months to get a job as a labourer. Of course I was already moved out.

1986, oil at $9/barrel, it was sure easy to find a job then too.

But your right, todays generation has it extra difficult. It must be hard to turn down all those advertised jobs at $12-$15/hour
(true from BC through to NWO, I havent been east lately)

And it's funny, I know a bunch of 18-22 year olds who are as competent as any of me and my peers were :)
They are all working of course.

Let them rot in their parents basement if they have that little initiative and training.

Poloz should have to work for free for a year if he thinks it is such a good idea.

IMHO
LF

Actually unemployment in the 18-25 bracket is not far off the 18% you quote. And a single number doesn't describe those who work the crap part-time jobs, the under-employed, all the no-benefit, unstable jobs, those who've given up looking, etc. Given how Harper has gutted the budget for StatsCan how would anyone know anyway. Can't quite recall there being a TFW program in place like there is now.

Interest rates? If you think the current low interest rates are better than the horrible 80's give your head a shake. All they've done is service to make the single biggest expense anyone will ever have - buying a house - even bigger. By inflating the price beyond all reasonable measures. The best thing that ever happened were those 22% rates, because they made people actually consider what they had to spend. Canada is a nation of monthly payments now. If the interest rates ever rise by the slightest amount it will be excruciating.

And $12-15/hr now is nothing, given inflation. Did I mention housing?

I graduated high school in the 80's as well. But it's far worse now, don't kid yourself. I hate hipsters and entitled Millennials as much as the next person but it's much, much bigger than that.
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Re: This guy should start an airline

Post by Tom H »

Habs.Fan
Anyone can spend 40 hours/week going to class and then studying and coming out 3 years later with a student loan and a paper to put on the wall - it's the ones that bust their asses in clubs, societies, at events and conferences and part-time jobs that end up with the employment at the end of their degree, because they've worked their tail off to make the contacts, build the bridges and develop the discipline needed to get a big boy job in the real world.
You have my agreement

My daughter graduated with a double major this past May....no loans and money in the bank. Sometimes holding 2 part time jobs.
Year before she paid on her own for a Course in Italy to accelerate her University completion.

After she graduated she had the money in the bank to spend 2 months in Europe with savings from working through University.

This fall, after chasing every lead she could get she started in a decent position with government and as soon as she started work moved into her own place.

Sure we helped as we could, some money for the first year tuition, she never had to pay room and board while living at home (as long as she was in University) but by and large did it through hard work.

I graduated in the 70s, for various reasons could not go to Secondary education, but by busting my butt I've always been able to find a decent job and take care of the family regardless of the economy.

Have times changed...sure, just like they changed between my father's time and mine. But it's what you do to make things work that makes the difference.

There are lots of great kids (like mine) out there, they just don't get the press.

In my highly biased personal opinion

Tom H
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