AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
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AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
Offer a mildly higher salary and get people to jump ship so you don't have to swallow the cost of a PPC.
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http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =7&t=99898
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Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
Every single other industry builds their training costs into their cost of doing business. Headhunters are in every single other industry..... ...and tons of other industries have comparable training costs.
The reason we have bonds is because pilots are dumb enough to sign them. If no pilot was willing to sign a bond... they would go away, period.
The reason we have bonds is because pilots are dumb enough to sign them. If no pilot was willing to sign a bond... they would go away, period.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
The reason we have bonds is because pilots are dumb enough to sign them. If no pilot was willing to sign a bond... they would go away, period.

...same goes for maintenance
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Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
Never signed a bond for either... never will.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
Back in the 80's my employer at the time came up with training bonds for myself and a small group of fellow pilots checking out on the mighty B99. We all said "no thanks" to the bonds and they disappeared never to return again.
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Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
I echo what has been said above. Now that I've been in the industry long enough you'd have to come after me with a knife to make me pay you a cent for my training. And if you offer me a bond to sign I'm laughing and saying "no thanks!"
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Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
A bond protects the company..... an entity making millions of dollars a year... and does nothing to protect the pilot making a wage two or three orders of magnitude smaller.
Maybe if there was a reverse bond... something protecting the pilot from say, poor training, poor management, sub-standard equipment, undue pressure.... then it could be construed as 'fair'. But no.. the pilot has to deal with all of those on their own... and perhaps will even be afraid to for fear of being punished monetarily in a very poor phase of life.
Maybe if there was a reverse bond... something protecting the pilot from say, poor training, poor management, sub-standard equipment, undue pressure.... then it could be construed as 'fair'. But no.. the pilot has to deal with all of those on their own... and perhaps will even be afraid to for fear of being punished monetarily in a very poor phase of life.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
We have bonds because, god forbid, some companies are willing to pay $11,000 a year more than the guys next door. How dare pilots want to earn a liveable wage in Calgary!BverLuver wrote:Offer a mildly higher salary and get people to jump ship so you don't have to swallow the cost of a PPC.
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =7&t=99898
Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
Marinth wrote:We have bonds because, god forbid, some companies are willing to pay $11,000 a year more than the guys next door. How dare pilots want to earn a liveable wage in Calgary!BverLuver wrote:Offer a mildly higher salary and get people to jump ship so you don't have to swallow the cost of a PPC.
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =7&t=99898
Marinth,
Would they pay they pay the same wage if they had to foot the bill for training? I sincerely doubt that.
IFlyforpie,
Obviously this company is NOT building cost of training into their business costs and expecting someone else who does, to foot the bill for training at a cost somewhere in the neighbourhood of $20k. Then when a "poor" f/o who has nothing vested into the company or training but lots vested into their debt of a CPL-MIFR, of course they would jump ship immediately for an extra $11k. Pilots have less morals, than 'most' companies. Don't kid yourself. And that my friend, is who respectable company's need to protect themselves from.
BL
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Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
Maybe if companies offered better wages to begin with, people wouldn't jump ship.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
Iflyforpie,
If this company paid that wage and, as you suggest, consider training a cost of doing business, they would have my respect. I highly doubt they would offer both and prove consistently that they won't. Poaching is as morally corrupt as paying a low wage.
BL
If this company paid that wage and, as you suggest, consider training a cost of doing business, they would have my respect. I highly doubt they would offer both and prove consistently that they won't. Poaching is as morally corrupt as paying a low wage.
BL
Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
BL,
Is your beef with the company who poaches or the pilots who get poached? I've got a pretty straight forward bond record, which I have described on here before, when I give my word, I do my best to honor it. If I was making X dollars a year somewhere and they had trained me, and another company offered me 3X dollars to work for them, would I jump ship? Most likely. I'd try to do it with the most notice as I could, and as tactfully as possible, but... I care more about my own well being then the companies bottom line. If the original company offered me 2.5X per year to stay, I'd consider it, but wonder why they didn't offer me that initially.
E
Is your beef with the company who poaches or the pilots who get poached? I've got a pretty straight forward bond record, which I have described on here before, when I give my word, I do my best to honor it. If I was making X dollars a year somewhere and they had trained me, and another company offered me 3X dollars to work for them, would I jump ship? Most likely. I'd try to do it with the most notice as I could, and as tactfully as possible, but... I care more about my own well being then the companies bottom line. If the original company offered me 2.5X per year to stay, I'd consider it, but wonder why they didn't offer me that initially.
E
Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
Esp803,
My beef is for people who lack morals and respect. It's not small insignificant money we are talking about here. Ask anyone to immediately cough up 1/2 the cost of a CPL-MIFR tomorrow with nothing in return and see how they respond to you.
BL
My beef is for people who lack morals and respect. It's not small insignificant money we are talking about here. Ask anyone to immediately cough up 1/2 the cost of a CPL-MIFR tomorrow with nothing in return and see how they respond to you.
BL
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Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
It is a small and insignificant amount of money for a company who's gross revenue measures in the millions or tens of millions of dollars. It would be like $200 to one of us.... yeah it sucks, but it's not going to kill us. If you found that you were losing $200 all of the time... maybe you'd spend an extra $10 to keep it.
A $25,000 bond to a first year F/O is like a million dollars to a corporation. Really..... if we were being fair, and holding everyone to the same morals... an F/O who left because he was not trained according to regulations, forced to break regulations, forced to work outside of labour laws, or unfairly dismissed should have the opportunity to collect that amount of money.... to as severely punish that company for being immoral or operating illegally.
Employees should never have to bear an employer's cost. I've heard that BS before... 'oh, why don't you take it out of your pocket?' Sure... right after you write me all of the dividend checks.
A $25,000 bond to a first year F/O is like a million dollars to a corporation. Really..... if we were being fair, and holding everyone to the same morals... an F/O who left because he was not trained according to regulations, forced to break regulations, forced to work outside of labour laws, or unfairly dismissed should have the opportunity to collect that amount of money.... to as severely punish that company for being immoral or operating illegally.
Employees should never have to bear an employer's cost. I've heard that BS before... 'oh, why don't you take it out of your pocket?' Sure... right after you write me all of the dividend checks.

Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
The definition of a "bond" in our world I can not tolerate but a bidirectional contract would be more than fair -- I have always said this to the young guys who are about to put pen to paper -- my advice is to take the bond to a lawyer and turn it into a fair contract -- no one has done that yet but I keep trying -- of course it has always been my belief that you should work for a company because you want to and if treated with fairness and respect and proper coin a guy will always stick around for those 2 years at least and probably more unless someone drops the loto into his or her lap -- holding someone for ransom with a financial gun cocked at their head does not a good employee make -- a pissed off pilot can cost you and as an employer you might not even get it right away -- are cash side trips alive and well --
not to mention working to rule -- good working conditions and pay may just be a little less costly -- but have you ever tried to push a chain -- it's about that difficult to have the light come on --

Black Air has no Lift - Extra Fuel has no Weight
ACTPA
ACTPA

Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
Iflyforpie,iflyforpie wrote:It is a small and insignificant amount of money for a company who's gross revenue measures in the millions or tens of millions of dollars. It would be like $200 to one of us.... yeah it sucks, but it's not going to kill us. If you found that you were losing $200 all of the time... maybe you'd spend an extra $10 to keep it.
A $25,000 bond to a first year F/O is like a million dollars to a corporation. Really..... if we were being fair, and holding everyone to the same morals... an F/O who left because he was not trained according to regulations, forced to break regulations, forced to work outside of labour laws, or unfairly dismissed should have the opportunity to collect that amount of money.... to as severely punish that company for being immoral or operating illegally.
Employees should never have to bear an employer's cost. I've heard that BS before... 'oh, why don't you take it out of your pocket?' Sure... right after you write me all of the dividend checks.
I think you may be a little out of touch with reality in costs and revenues. Which surprises me a bit since you are normally so far ahead of the curve in most other subjects. I think you miss the mark greatly here.
BL
Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
I'm trying to figure out how a bond costs a pilot anything if he lives up to the terms.
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Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
Am I out of touch?
Tell me... what is the typical gross revenue of a company that operates King Airs? I am focusing on gross revenue.. .because the F/O also has to pay the bond out of his or her gross revenue in addition to required expenses like tax, rent, food, and other things.
What are the typical expenses of a company that operates King Airs? Fuel expenses, hangar lease, insurance, maintenance costs, legal, etc etc and how do they compare with what a bond is worth?
Finally... explain the Hollywood accounting that even comes up with the figure they charge on a bond. Lots of other people more knowledgeable than me are calling BS on the figures they represent.
Tell me... what is the typical gross revenue of a company that operates King Airs? I am focusing on gross revenue.. .because the F/O also has to pay the bond out of his or her gross revenue in addition to required expenses like tax, rent, food, and other things.
What are the typical expenses of a company that operates King Airs? Fuel expenses, hangar lease, insurance, maintenance costs, legal, etc etc and how do they compare with what a bond is worth?
Finally... explain the Hollywood accounting that even comes up with the figure they charge on a bond. Lots of other people more knowledgeable than me are calling BS on the figures they represent.
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
Really simple DonutHole. A company tells you you will be working 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off, at salary X, which is great. You sign the bond because you can't see yourself leaving under those conditions. 3 months later the company decides it needs to change the schedule to 4 weeks on / 2 weeks off, and now pays 1.3X to be fair. For family reasons you can't accept the new work schedule, but of you can't quit because you have a 12k bond hanging over your head.
That's just one real example at a company I worked for that no one saw coming. I was the only one who hadn't signed the bond.
That's just one real example at a company I worked for that no one saw coming. I was the only one who hadn't signed the bond.
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Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
Bonds have no protection for the pilot. It's a one way street, for the sole benefit of the company. Its endentured servitude, nothing more, nothing less. And, they exist because pilots sign them.
For every pilot I've seen "walk away" I've seen at least five get screwed by companies.
End of very small rant.
Illya
For every pilot I've seen "walk away" I've seen at least five get screwed by companies.
End of very small rant.
Illya
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
The sense I get, is the argument is being made that if pilots were paid more they would not leave.
I have been in this industry a long time, and my observation is that the argument is not correct. Pilots will take a 50% drop in salary....to move ahead in their career.
And companies I have worked for have got burned by pilots leterally getting their PPC one day, and giving notice the next. And not one word or regret.." Sorry dude, but this is my chance to move to some heavy iron".....at 1/2 the salary.
The problem is pilots want to move up ....so each job is nothing more than a career step...the poor buggers in the middle where training costs get high, take the beating. Should they pay more? In a perfect world, yes, but with being a caeer step, rather than a destination they know that pilots will work for diddley just to get ahead. Why in the world would they pay more for people who do not respect themselves
But as far as poaching that brought about the original post. If no pilot is so morraly challanged to apply, they will be sitting without a pilot, and forced to take some different action. I predict they wont have a problem filling the job.
I have been in this industry a long time, and my observation is that the argument is not correct. Pilots will take a 50% drop in salary....to move ahead in their career.
And companies I have worked for have got burned by pilots leterally getting their PPC one day, and giving notice the next. And not one word or regret.." Sorry dude, but this is my chance to move to some heavy iron".....at 1/2 the salary.
The problem is pilots want to move up ....so each job is nothing more than a career step...the poor buggers in the middle where training costs get high, take the beating. Should they pay more? In a perfect world, yes, but with being a caeer step, rather than a destination they know that pilots will work for diddley just to get ahead. Why in the world would they pay more for people who do not respect themselves
But as far as poaching that brought about the original post. If no pilot is so morraly challanged to apply, they will be sitting without a pilot, and forced to take some different action. I predict they wont have a problem filling the job.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
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Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
I never did understand why PPC's are transferable. A significant part of the PPC process is supposed to be learning the management structure and processes, dispatch and reporting procedures, maintenance systems and processes. training requirements, SOP's, company checklists etc etc.
Going to a new company necessarily means that all of the above are going to be different. It seems reasonable to me that the new company be required to demonstrate how their training system will ensure the new hire gets the requisite knowledge and skills to operate the aircraft properly by redoing the PPC so it now valid for that company
Any company that can't demonstrate they have that capability can't hire any new pilots. This would instantly end poaching by companies that expect others to do the training they are too cheap or incompetent to do themselves.
Going to a new company necessarily means that all of the above are going to be different. It seems reasonable to me that the new company be required to demonstrate how their training system will ensure the new hire gets the requisite knowledge and skills to operate the aircraft properly by redoing the PPC so it now valid for that company
Any company that can't demonstrate they have that capability can't hire any new pilots. This would instantly end poaching by companies that expect others to do the training they are too cheap or incompetent to do themselves.
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Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
Exactly...
Non transferable PPC's would solve the problem.
Therefore the real problem is a regulator with their heads up their as.es.
Non transferable PPC's would solve the problem.
Therefore the real problem is a regulator with their heads up their as.es.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: AND THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BONDS!!!
That's not really the point. Just because the shit doesn't stink to you personally, in no way means it isn't shit.DonutHole wrote:I'm trying to figure out how a bond costs a pilot anything if he lives up to the terms.
Illya
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.