AC and TRZ Agree to Terminate Arrangement

[Sharklasers]

[quote=Localizer post_id=<a href="tel:1145085">1145085</a> time=<a href="tel:1614034992">1614034992</a> user_id=2924]

The level of entitlement in this thread by some Transat guys boggles the mind.

You speak from the position as though you look down on other pilots in the industry (proof is your 20% discount comment) .. so this comment has a particular irony to it.


I speak from the position of an employed and working pilot who hopes to stay that way and regain his captaincy before retirement. A Transat merger will not do anything to propel me or my colleagues in that same boat any closer to that goal. In fact it will do quite the opposite, so pardon us if our god given survival instincts offend you in any way.

Again, there are people at AT in the same boat as you, are they less valuable then yourself? Self preservation is an instinct in all of us .. I’m just trying to open your eyes to “the entitled Transat pilots” that are doing the same as you. More similarities then differences.

BTW I’m not offended in any way ... should I be?

When it is Air Canada pilots *attenpting* to get onto the transat pilot seniority list while simultaneously desperately trying to convince the transat pilots that it is actually a good thing for them to lose their seats and jobs and incomes in the name of solidarity or kumbaya or whatever your arguments will hold water.
Untill then I will remain firmly convinced that Air Canada pilots are entitled to their positions on the Air Canada list.

[Sharklasers]

It is very clear that a combination means less jobs, what is so hard to understand about that. Don’t expect Air Canada employees to be happy to share that pain of lost transat positions.

I want a serious straight faced answer as to why some Transat pilots expect the Air Canada pilots to happily share the pain of lost Transat pilot jobs.

[Localizer]

[quote=Localizer post_id=<a href="tel:1145085">1145085</a> time=<a href="tel:1614034992">1614034992</a> user_id=2924]



You speak from the position as though you look down on other pilots in the industry (proof is your 20% discount comment) .. so this comment has a particular irony to it.


I speak from the position of an employed and working pilot who hopes to stay that way and regain his captaincy before retirement. A Transat merger will not do anything to propel me or my colleagues in that same boat any closer to that goal. In fact it will do quite the opposite, so pardon us if our god given survival instincts offend you in any way.

Again, there are people at AT in the same boat as you, are they less valuable then yourself? Self preservation is an instinct in all of us .. I’m just trying to open your eyes to “the entitled Transat pilots” that are doing the same as you. More similarities then differences.

BTW I’m not offended in any way ... should I be?

When it is Air Canada pilots scratching and clawing to get onto the transat pilot seniority list while simultaneously desperately trying to convince the transat pilots that it is actually a good thing for them to lose their seats and jobs and incomes in the name of solidarity or kumbaya or whatever your arguments will hold water.
Untill then I will remain firmly convinced that Air Canada pilots are entitled to their positions on the Air Canada list.

Scratching and clawing?? Paranoia?? I know it’s tough and strange times ... but man, utilize the employee assistance program.

[Sharklasers]

Scratching and clawing was inappropriate for that I apologize but the rest of my point and question stands.

Its pretty clear to me that we will never see eye to eye on this.

My concern is with preserving the careers of my colleagues and myself and yours is with you and your colleagues, a merger and one at this time is directly and unavoidably in conflict with that. I do wish all Transat pilots successful and long careers but not at the expense of mine.
With that said I think its fair to say I have nothing more to add except goodluck to us all.

[Localizer]

Scratching and clawing was inappropriate for that I apologize but the rest of my point and question stands.

Its pretty clear to me that we will never see eye to eye on this.

My concern is with preserving the careers of my colleagues and myself and yours is with you and your colleagues, a merger and one at this time is directly and unavoidably in conflict with that. I do wish all Transat pilots successful and long careers but not at the expense of mine.
With that said I think its fair to say I have nothing more to add except goodluck to us all.

This I can agree with and support. I totally know where you’re coming from and understand.

I just hope this world gets back on track ASAP! I hope you get your left seat back!

[boeingboy]

Instead of getting all worked up over each other - we should wait and see if it actually goes through. There's still a lot that can happen, and my gut still thinks there's nothing really left of any value in this for Air Canada after reading all the conditions of sale.

[altiplano]

Scratching and clawing was inappropriate for that I apologize but the rest of my point and question stands.

Its pretty clear to me that we will never see eye to eye on this.

My concern is with preserving the careers of my colleagues and myself and yours is with you and your colleagues, a merger and one at this time is directly and unavoidably in conflict with that. I do wish all Transat pilots successful and long careers but not at the expense of mine.
With that said I think its fair to say I have nothing more to add except goodluck to us all.

This I can agree with and support. I totally know where you’re coming from and understand.

I just hope this world gets back on track ASAP! I hope you get your left seat back!

How come you agree with him when he says it?

[800man]

Oh blah blah blah. What is this, 80 pages of the same 5 AC people over and over bitching about their potential seniority loss.

Synopsis from the start of the thread:

Tiny handful of AC guys: Hey @#$! you guys, you guys won the lottery. We're going to lose all our jobs because of your 13% integration. AC is the best place to work and TS is obviously the worst.

TS: We're happy that the company will still be viable, but honestly the conditions here have been really good. I guess we'll see what the future holds. AC is definitely better for job security for us.

AC: You ingrates.

---PANDEMIC--- Gov't unilaterally stops almost all international and leisure flying. All TS pilots now laid off. Company loses 80% of value. Possibility of bankruptcy and permanent layoffs. Deal regenotiated and completely uncertain.

TS: What's going to happen? Are we going to even have a job ever again? Man, if we get bought by some random QC company with zero aviation experience post-pandemic we might get run into the ground. AC might be our only hope at this point.

Tiny fraction of AC guys: Still don't care! Lose your houses before I drop 3 seniority numbers!

Minus the couple of factual posters, ie Rudder, who are postulating the details, you guys are pathetic broken records.

Luckily the remaining 5000 don't give a rats ass what you think. I sure don't know a single guy or girl at AC that shares your online opinion. Certainly not now with TS suddenly staring down the barrel of Trudeau's bankruptcy cannon.

At the beginning of all this, as an AC guy I wouldn't be over the moon about possibly losing a couple of months worth of seniority. But I probably wouldn't care too much. More important things to fill our days with.
Now, knowing this might be the only thing securing a callback for guys a few years down the road as opposed to not at all, I'd be happy to accept it!

One this is certain, we have no clue, and no influence. We are ONLY in control of our OWN lives. Most Canadian airlines have been taking horrible advantage of us the last 20 years anyways. I might just leave and live in a country where they actually value their airlines.

80 pages of it.... keep it going guys! Might make a difference! LOL!!!

[Localizer]

We agree to disagree man .. I’ve never been unsupportive of how you “feel” (snowflake! Kidding), I’ve been trying to add another perspective and felt you were demonizing another pilot group for decisions they have no control over.

Like others have said, this deal may never materialize and we’ve wasted all this hot air for nothing ... if it does happen, I’ll still sit in a bar with you and drink beer while I listen to you whine ... (did I lighten up yet?)

[altiplano]

We agree to disagree man .. I’ve never been unsupportive of how you “feel” (snowflake! Kidding), I’ve been trying to add another perspective and felt you were demonizing another pilot group for decisions they have no control over.

Like others have said, this deal may never materialize and we’ve wasted all this hot air for nothing ... if it does happen, I’ll still sit in a bar with you and drink beer while I listen to you whine ... (did I lighten up yet?)

I'm not sure what I said that you characterize as whining, or feeling, or demonizing. I've just been trying to communicate a perspective that I can't believe you guys couldn't accept. I'm not sure why you guys think we should just like the potential implications. I can accept, but I don't have to like.

Anyway, hot air indeed... It is what it is, and deal or no deal, it doesn't make a lick of difference what we all have said.

And either way I'd have a beer with you.

[gustind]

I want a serious straight faced answer as to why some Transat pilots expect the Air Canada pilots to happily share the pain of lost Transat pilot jobs.

As a Transat pilot, I was devastated to hear about Sunwing ceasing operations. As a Transat pilot, I felt the pain of old co-workers being laid off from their E175 gigs. As a Transat pilot, it hurt me to hear of many old and new commercial pilots in the industry being completely lost with feelings of hopelessness in this industry.


I may not expect anyone to happily share in my pain. But I won't let my employer define my ability to have empathy towards others in this industry. I'm not asking for pity, I'm asking for understanding. Yes, I do understand we as pilots will be negatively affected by this acquisition, on both sides. I have a family, kids, and a house to pay off. I'm just like any other pilot in the industry who just wants to show up to work, fly around and go home at the end of the day.


On a side note, I had a quick look at the convoluted contract AC pilots have. I'd happily stay at my pay rate, keep my ALPA contract, and keep my working conditions for the rest of my life.

[LittleNelly]

The Transat side really needs to pick a stream here. One moment they are arguing that their jobs need to be saved. Yet immediately after argue that there is no way Transat is going anywhere, they won’t be allowed to fail( is the likely outcome)

Keeping them separate= more jobs between two companies. So in fact the argument against the merger is an argument for protecting more jobs including Transat jobs. How is that not better for Transat people too?

If a combined Air Canada Transat results in 3,000-4000 less jobs than the two separate companies how is that better for the employees?

[Sharklasers]

Tiny fraction of AC guys: Still don't care! Lose your houses before I drop 3 seniority numbers!

At the beginning of all this, as an AC guy I wouldn't be over the moon about possibly losing a couple of months worth of seniority. But I probably wouldn't care too much. More important things to fill our days with.

When you trivialize someones concerns you only serve to steel their positions on the issue. Very very few people will only stand to lose 3 seniority numbers or a couple months of seniority and you know it. Alot of our membership stands to lose 400-650 numbers, which if we get back to the glory days of 100 upgrade a year will delay their progression 4-6 years and cost them half a million dollars a piece. So please, you tell me which of our membership you deem worthy of being allowed to be concerned over their jobs and progression.
As for your many many AC friends I assure you they all hold those same concerns and they are valid and your hyperbole will not make you many friends on the issue.

[800man]

Sharklasers, I have no idea where you're getting those speculative numbers from, if you can support them I'd be interested, but IMO your perspective is flawed resulting in those estimates.

First off, TS only has 600 pilots. We've lost a bunch in early retirement, but that's beside the point.

Secondly, and most importantly, you're forgetting that the TS brand comes with not just the pilots, but ALSO the aircraft and the capacity. We also had a shortage of around 100 (15%) before the pandemic. So, the TS pilots would not be condensing into your current capacity, but rather just staying where they are and servicing the existing brand capacity.

Thirdly, it will be years, likely 2+ before the fences start coming down. Best estimates have 2024 echoing 2018-19 capacity. It will be the start of expansion again. in the meantime, both groups will have had the same percentage of movement via natural attrition and retirements, and then will start ramping up as the mergers happen. There will have been no influence on the AC side up to this point.
We will just be doing things parallel to you. It's the shutdowns that have caused the handbrake on upgrades and new hiring due to pausing expansion, not the merger. TS independently probably just went to 10 year upgrades at best.

[LittleNelly]

Secondly, and most importantly, you're forgetting that the TS brand comes with not just the pilots, but ALSO the aircraft and the capacity. We also had a shortage of around 100 (15%) before the pandemic. So, the TS pilots wouldn't be condensing into your current capacity, but rather just staying where they are and servicing the existing brand capacity.

.

I guess you missed the part where AC is making concessions on giving away all Transats slots in Europe. So no Transat is not bringing all this flying over. The deal as is seems structured primarily for the tour/package operation.

If the case is Transat permanently going forward as a trimmed down operation, as indicated by the 1500 agreement, requiring only say 200 pilots who will get integrated by ratio with the rest being stapled. Would you still support this merger?

[altiplano]

Sharklasers, I have no idea where you're getting those speculative numbers from, if you can support them I'd be interested, but IMO your perspective is flawed resulting in those estimates.

First off, TS only has 600 pilots. We've lost a bunch in early retirement, but that's beside the point.

Secondly, and most importantly, you're forgetting that the TS brand comes with not just the pilots, but ALSO the aircraft and the capacity. We also had a shortage of around 100 (15%) before the pandemic. So, the TS pilots wouldn't be condensing into your current capacity, but rather just staying where they are and servicing the existing brand capacity.

Thirdly, it will be years, likely 2-3 before the fences start coming down. Best estimates have 2023-24 echoing 2018-19 capacity. It will be the start of expansion again. in the meantime, both groups will have had the same percentage of movement via natural attrition and retirements, and then will start ramping up as the mergers happen. There will have been no influence on the AC side up to this point.
We will just be doing things parallel to you. It's the shutdowns that have caused the handbrake on upgrades and new hiring due to pausing expansion, not the merger.

1. Only 600. That's still a lot of seats. That's 6 years of upgrades in good times. That's almost all the YUL base...

2. Do you know where all the TS aircraft are? Remember they are all leases also, which equals cash bleed if they aren't making money. 310s and 737s were done anyway, but probably the older 330s as well. Besides, in the aircraft market today AC could get any plane they wanted.

3. A lot of TS flying is gone in this deal. Slots are gone. There is a consolidation of capacity, not any increase after closing. That's straight out of Rovinescu's mouth pre-pandemic. I was in the room and watched him say it. Lyon was the example he gave, instead of 10 flights/week it goes to daily service in the new combined operation. They envision that on every overlapped route. They will drastically cut capacity. So who should fly it? TS guys or AC guys? Even Steven? Ratio? Seats lost.

4. No influence for years on the AC side while TS goes merrily along? Do you think that AC corporate will want to do that? Maintain over capacity? Especially in the state things are in now? No! They will slash and burn for profit.

I always hear about the pilots here... what about all the other jobs? Will big ole AC with 25,000 people layed off just hire everyone from Transat? Will they displace AC agents or AMEs or FAs? And who should get brought back first? Do you care?

[tsgas]

Sharklasers, I have no idea where you're getting those speculative numbers from, if you can support them I'd be interested, but IMO your perspective is flawed resulting in those estimates.

First off, TS only has 600 pilots. We've lost a bunch in early retirement, but that's beside the point.

Secondly, and most importantly, you're forgetting that the TS brand comes with not just the pilots, but ALSO the aircraft and the capacity. We also had a shortage of around 100 (15%) before the pandemic. So, the TS pilots wouldn't be condensing into your current capacity, but rather just staying where they are and servicing the existing brand capacity.

Thirdly, it will be years, likely 2-3 before the fences start coming down. Best estimates have 2023-24 echoing 2018-19 capacity. It will be the start of expansion again. in the meantime, both groups will have had the same percentage of movement via natural attrition and retirements, and then will start ramping up as the mergers happen. There will have been no influence on the AC side up to this point.
We will just be doing things parallel to you. It's the shutdowns that have caused the handbrake on upgrades and new hiring due to pausing expansion, not the merger.

1. Only 600. That's still a lot of seats. That's 6 years of upgrades in good times. That's almost all the YUL base...

2. Do you know where all the TS aircraft are? Remember they are all leases also, which equals cash bleed if they aren't making money. 310s and 737s were done anyway, but probably the older 330s as well. Besides, in the aircraft market today AC could get any plane they wanted.

3. A lot of TS flying is gone in this deal. Slots are gone. There is a consolidation of capacity, not any increase after closing. That's straight out of Rovinescu's mouth pre-pandemic. I was in the room and watched him say it. Lyon was the example he gave, instead of 10 flights/week it goes to daily service in the new combined operation. They envision that on every overlapped route. They will drastically cut capacity. So who should fly it? TS guys or AC guys? Even Steven? Ratio? Seats lost.

4. No influence for years on the AC side while TS goes merrily along? Do you think that AC corporate will want to do that? Maintain over capacity? Especially in the state things are in now? No! They will slash and burn for profit.

I always hear about the pilots here... what about all the other jobs? Will big ole AC with 25,000 people layed off just hire everyone from Transat? Will they displace AC agents or AMEs or FAs? And who should get brought back first? Do you care?

You make a lot of good points with the exception of " they will slash and burn for profit". It's all about SURVIVAL at this stage in history. Many airlines worldwide will fail and their employees will be turfed. Preventing another Bankruptcy will be a major accomplishment for the management team and the company's lenders. .

[TheStig]

At this point, despite Air Canada's losses the reduced purchase price alone should be appealing to AC to simply remove a big competitor from post-COVID landscape. Even if Westjet or another entrant eventually picks up some of the city pairings that AC is forced to relinquish, AC will be able to recover without competition from Transat.

[tsgas]

At this point, despite Air Canada's losses the reduced purchase price alone should be appealing to AC to simply remove a big competitor from post-COVID landscape. Even if Westjet or another entrant eventually picks up some of the city pairings that AC is forced to relinquish, AC will be able to recover without competition from Transat.

The reason that the purchase price was reduced is because TRZ has gone from being cash positive to being a huge financial liability. The billions of dollars in AC debt will have to be repaid , along with the interest. If Transit remains independent , it too will have to downsize as well, to pay off it's debt.

[800man]

Talking pre-pandemic here, I have no way of believing that a strategic long-term reduction of capacity is in any company's business plan when the products are profitable.

Let's look a couple of years down the road, as it would be comparable to pre-pandemic.
TS had high loads for Transatlantic flying. I'm assuming AC and Rouge were similar, or at least close.

You're telling me that with available patronage and capacity in the mid-term to long-term projections they're going to simply.... reduce it? Short term obviously, and some consolidation on overlap in order to deliver an effective timetable, maybe. That's what their accountants will figure out, but cutting overall total, profitable capacity by 30% when the demand would outweigh in the mid and long is borderline hilarious.

Also, those aren't 154 paired slots (308 total) that are going to disappear. Again, that's crazy. They're only the market for 5 years. Who is going to pick them up? Maybe a few chunks here and there, but after 60 months, the majority will be right back to AC permanently.

Listen, the slots are of value here because the newest strategic modelling promotes use of LR narrow bodies on Trans-AT routes. 737 MAX, and 321-NeoLR. This means more slots for the same capacity as the superceded wide-body model.

Also means more planes.

And pilots.

There's a reason this has been on the books for a few years by AC. There also has to be a very compelling reason why the TS BOD insists on the AC trajctory over all others. And a reason AC didn't walk after a few opportunities.

Us bitching about our crumbs won't change anything, I'm not trying to argue with anyone, I'm just stating facts, I'd rather just enjoy life.

[LittleNelly]

Talking pre-pandemic here, I have no way of believing that a strategic long-term reduction of capacity is in any company's business plan when the products are profitable.

Let's look a couple of years down the road, as it would be comparable to pre-pandemic.
TS had high loads for Transatlantic flying. I'm assuming AC and Rouge were similar, or at least close.

You're telling me that with available patronage and capacity in the mid-term to long-term projections they're going to simply.... reduce it? Short term obviously, and some consolidation on overlap in order to deliver an effective timetable, maybe. That's what their accountants will figure out, but cutting overall total, profitable capacity by 30% when the demand would outweigh in the mid and long is borderline hilarious.

Also, those aren't 154 paired slots (308 total) that are going to disappear. Again, that's crazy. They're only the market for 5 years. Who is going to pick them up? Maybe a few chunks here and there, but after 60 months, the majority will be right back to AC.

Listen, the slots are of value here because the newest strategic modelling promotes use of LR narrow bodies on Trans-AT routes. 737 MAX, and 321-NeoLR. This means more slots for the same capacity.

Also means more planes.

And pilots.

There's a reason this has been on the books for a few years by AC. There also has to be a very compelling reason why the TS BOD insists on the AC trajctory over all others. And a reason AC didn't walk after a few opportunities.

Us bitching about our crumbs won't change anything, I'm not trying to argue with anyone, I'm just stating facts, I'd rather just enjoy life.

1) Transat struggled for years with losses during the most profitable decade for the airline industry.

2) it makes absolute sense to cut capacity to rise prices and yield on a previously over competitive market. Less people but more profitable

3) despite any hopes and dreams about how many jobs possible future expansion might bring the simple fact is no matter what keeping both companies separate in competition with the excess capacity will mean more jobs.
What is better more jobs on less jobs?

[800man]

It's not a captive market though. Foreign carriers make up almost 40% of the trans-At market. Add American carriers, whereas about 70% of Canada's population lives within 4 hrs driving distance of a major US airport, and there is plenty of choice. They aren't in a position to dictate the prices with that much competition. It's actually a fricken miracle our prices are marginally competitive to the US... but then again, look what we get paid.

The topic of operational redundancy in many support departments has been discussed here ad nasuem and is still an unknown with the "Brand Maintenance" agenda, but common sense predicts cuts. Probably still better than being run into the ground by some third party. Most of this conversation is pilot-centric regardless.

[tsgas]

It's not a captive market though. Foreign carriers make up almost 40% of the trans-At market. Add American carriers, whereas about 70% of Canada's population lives within 4 hrs driving distance of a major US airport, and there is plenty of choice. They aren't in a position to dictate the prices with that much competition. It's actually a fricken miracle our prices are marginally competitive to the US... but then again, look what we get paid.

The topic of operational redundancy in many support departments has been discussed here ad nasuem and is still an unknown with the "Brand Maintenance" agenda, but likely some cuts. Most of this conversation is pilot-centric regardless.

If you are not happy with your pay , then quit, there are hundreds willing to take your place. Maybe dental school would be an option for you.

[altiplano]

Talking pre-pandemic here, I have no way of believing that a strategic long-term reduction of capacity is in any company's business plan when the products are profitable.

Let's look a couple of years down the road, as it would be comparable to pre-pandemic.
TS had high loads for Transatlantic flying. I'm assuming AC and Rouge were similar, or at least close.

You're telling me that with available patronage and capacity in the mid-term to long-term projections they're going to simply.... reduce it? Short term obviously, and some consolidation on overlap in order to deliver an effective timetable, maybe. That's what their accountants will figure out, but cutting overall total, profitable capacity by 30% when the demand would outweigh in the mid and long is borderline hilarious.

Also, those aren't 154 paired slots (308 total) that are going to disappear. Again, that's crazy. They're only the market for 5 years. Who is going to pick them up? Maybe a few chunks here and there, but after 60 months, the majority will be right back to AC permanently.

Listen, the slots are of value here because the newest strategic modelling promotes use of LR narrow bodies on Trans-AT routes. 737 MAX, and 321-NeoLR. This means more slots for the same capacity as the superceded wide-body model.

Also means more planes.

And pilots.

There's a reason this has been on the books for a few years by AC. There also has to be a very compelling reason why the TS BOD insists on the AC trajctory over all others. And a reason AC didn't walk after a few opportunities.

Us bitching about our crumbs won't change anything, I'm not trying to argue with anyone, I'm just stating facts, I'd rather just enjoy life.

No you aren't stating facts, you're guessing.

But you don't have to listen to me, as I said those were the words that I watched and heard come out of Calin Rovinescu's mouth. That isn't me supposing on what their plan is, that's what he said the plan is. There's no reason to think Mike Rousseau would move any differently.

Why do they want to reduce capacity - aka "rationalize capacity" - because it increases yields.

There won't be more planes than there were separately at the start, there won't be more jobs.

Anyway. I think you're dreaming with your predictions there. But as you say you aren't changing anything. Keep enjoying the good life...

[LittleNelly]

The topic of operational redundancy in many support departments has been discussed here ad nasuem and is still an unknown with the "Brand Maintenance" agenda, but common sense predicts cuts. Probably still better than being run into the ground by some third party. Most of this conversation is pilot-centric regardless.

So oh well those non-pilot employees don’t matter as long as the Transat pilots get their number I guess.