Compagnies would reduce their pile of CV big time by stating pay and benefices
digits_ wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:25 am
Lots of companies keep their salaries secret. I assume they think they would get some advantage from that. I personally doubt it.
It gives them a negotiation avantage and we trend to under evaluate ourselves big time as candidates (Not only in aviation)
On a personal note, I would run away from companies not willing to give their salary range during an interview as they are not truthful. You also have the right to know the salary range of any job you pursue before giving up a word about your salary requirements.
goingmissed wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:11 am
I want a job that pays me for my time worked, not for when the engines are running.
I want a flying job that pays me for my decisions making, not for my time.
twa22 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:13 pm
More like we accept shit pay as pilots because we have no choice until we can actually make good money... well, we do have a choice, to all collectively, as a group, say no, and then force the hand of these operators paying less then mcdonalds managers, but, that's all a nice pipe dream, although, maybe one day, just maybe...
You have a choice. But you choose to work for the low wages now in the hopes that the larger wages are worth it down the road. There's lots of smaller operators who pay well. You never hear about them because guys make a career there and they don't talk about it.
But do I really? I have just under 1000 hours and I'm still struggling to find a job, and I'm not the only one in the same boat, many others like me with similar hours are also having a hard time
So what are we lower hour guys/gals supposed to do when a shit job paying 30k a year comes around, say no? I'd personally love to, hell, I make double that now in an unqualified job barely doing any work, it absolutely blows my mind how that's possible... The logical thing would be to do never even go back to aviation. Here's the thing, I love flying, and like many, I can't stand an office job, and can tolerate non office jobs, but I'd rather fly. So while I can say no all day to horrible paying flying jobs in poor working conditions, which I would, I unfortunately wouldn't get any hours in my logbook so I can seek greener pastures down the road
I am all for hearing your suggestions of where to find a place to build hours while making a decent wage, and actually getting that job, because after everything I just told you, I doubt that exists
End of the day, someone will always take that 30k a year job to get those hours... Sad reality we have to deal with until we all say enough as a collective unit
You have a choice. But you choose to work for the low wages now in the hopes that the larger wages are worth it down the road. There's lots of smaller operators who pay well. You never hear about them because guys make a career there and they don't talk about it.
But do I really? I have just under 1000 hours and I'm still struggling to find a job, and I'm not the only one in the same boat, many others like me with similar hours are also having a hard time
So what are we lower hour guys/gals supposed to do when a shit job paying 30k a year comes around, say no? I'd personally love to, hell, I make double that now in an unqualified job barely doing any work, it absolutely blows my mind how that's possible... The logical thing would be to do never even go back to aviation. Here's the thing, I love flying, and like many, I can't stand an office job, and can tolerate non office jobs, but I'd rather fly. So while I can say no all day to horrible paying flying jobs in poor working conditions, which I would, I unfortunately wouldn't get any hours in my logbook so I can seek greener pastures down the road
I am all for hearing your suggestions of where to find a place to build hours while making a decent wage, and actually getting that job, because after everything I just told you, I doubt that exists
End of the day, someone will always take that 30k a year job to get those hours... Sad reality we have to deal with until we all say enough as a collective unit
You have a choice. But you choose to work for the low wages now in the hopes that the larger wages are worth it down the road. There's lots of smaller operators who pay well. You never hear about them because guys make a career there and they don't talk about it.
But do I really? I have just under 1000 hours and I'm still struggling to find a job, and I'm not the only one in the same boat, many others like me with similar hours are also having a hard time
So what are we lower hour guys/gals supposed to do when a shit job paying 30k a year comes around, say no? I'd personally love to, hell, I make double that now in an unqualified job barely doing any work, it absolutely blows my mind how that's possible... The logical thing would be to do never even go back to aviation. Here's the thing, I love flying, and like many, I can't stand an office job, and can tolerate non office jobs, but I'd rather fly. So while I can say no all day to horrible paying flying jobs in poor working conditions, which I would, I unfortunately wouldn't get any hours in my logbook so I can seek greener pastures down the road
I am all for hearing your suggestions of where to find a place to build hours while making a decent wage, and actually getting that job, because after everything I just told you, I doubt that exists
End of the day, someone will always take that 30k a year job to get those hours... Sad reality we have to deal with until we all say enough as a collective unit
TG wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:26 am
I want a flying job that pays me for my decisions making, not for my time.
Interesting concept - any suggestions as how that would be evaluated and quantified? Without some way to measure it, it would be very difficult to decide how much to pay for it.
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twa22 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 6:56 am
Not sure why you're taking a jab at me, I never once suggested I need some big shiny metal job at a 705 with my current experience
FWIW, I did apply to the job Roar suggested... No need to poke at people you have no clue about
Not at you, tongue in cheek, in general.
I know a lot about the 1000 hr purgatory - I also know the mindset of a 1000 hr pilot - most holding out for what I described above and few willing to go for an adventure, or trudge off the beaten path if there is no direct routing to Big Red.
The fresh CPLs pre-2019 had what seemed like endless opportunity to skip to the 'good' part.
twa22 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 6:56 am
Not sure why you're taking a jab at me, I never once suggested I need some big shiny metal job at a 705 with my current experience
FWIW, I did apply to the job Roar suggested... No need to poke at people you have no clue about
Not at you, tongue in cheek, in general.
I know a lot about the 1000 hr purgatory - I also know the mindset of a 1000 hr pilot - most holding out for what I described above and few willing to go for an adventure, or trudge off the beaten path if there is no direct routing to Big Red.
The fresh CPLs pre-2019 had what seemed like endless opportunity to skip to the 'good' part.
Good luck.
Fair enough, I can't speak for others but can see where you're coming from. Anyways, here's to hoping for better days ahead for all, not just low timers, it's time wages and conditions improve across the board from the smallest 702 to the biggest 705
TG wrote: ↑Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:26 am
I want a flying job that pays me for my decisions making, not for my time.
Interesting concept - any suggestions as how that would be evaluated and quantified? Without some way to measure it, it would be very difficult to decide how much to pay for it.
You are right then when you think of the experience (Associated with reputation) Someone can bring, it's a way to evaluate it.
I knew a guy with another concept. He would says "I'm paid for my time in the Sim!"
I get paid to spend X days a year in a crew room, and Y days a year away from doing things that I like with my family and friends. (Gotta admit though, some days away from the chaos of home is good!)
To the topic: YES! Post pay. None of this 'Salary according to company pay scale' stuff..
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Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
Per diems vs Compensation? WHO CARES! POST IT IN THE JOB AD
Pay commensurate with experience? WHO CARES! POST IT IN THE JOB AD
"Competative" and "Industry Leading" Pay? WHO CARES! POST IT IN THE JOB AD
Been in the industry for over 20 years and around the block a few times! This isn't post 9/11 where you had to dig shitters and take out the owners trash!! They need us now more than ever!
This forum has been crucial for our careers but why? It's because of this amazing COMMUNITY of PILOTS helping each other out! But what has AVCANADA done to promote the profession?! TWO DECADES of steady ad revenue! Website still looks as it did back in '01, with the same shitty job ads! Time to give back to those that make this forum so great!
IF EMPLOYERS WANT TO LIST ON AVCANADA THEY NEED TO POST THEIR PAY!
AVCANADA DO YOUR PART TO PROMOTE PILOT PAY AND THE PROFESSION!
Per diems vs Compensation? WHO CARES! POST IT IN THE JOB AD
Pay commensurate with experience? WHO CARES! POST IT IN THE JOB AD
"Competative" and "Industry Leading" Pay? WHO CARES! POST IT IN THE JOB AD
Been in the industry for over 20 years and around the block a few times! This isn't post 9/11 where you had to dig shitters and take out the owners trash!! They need us now more than ever!
This forum has been crucial for our careers but why? It's because of this amazing COMMUNITY of PILOTS helping each other out! But what has AVCANADA done to promote the profession?! TWO DECADES of steady ad revenue! Website still looks as it did back in '01, with the same shitty job ads! Time to give back to those that make this forum so great!
IF EMPLOYERS WANT TO LIST ON AVCANADA THEY NEED TO POST THEIR PAY!
AVCANADA DO YOUR PART TO PROMOTE PILOT PAY AND THE PROFESSION!
Holy sheep sh!t $130K to fly a -200 with paid rotations and matched RRSP?!
Great salary!
mmm..bacon wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:11 am
Why would a person ever go to FlAirWestJazEnc?
It used to be industry standard in Manitoba to have a 24/7 standby system for medevac flights. No shifts or anything. That's what chased a lot of pilots away in the past.
Not sure what the current situation is, but I think it might have something to do with that.
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Loon-A-Tic wrote: ↑Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:29 am
They have "convientley" omitted the names of their three bases as well, that could prove to be interesting and expensive for housing.
I think they provide crew housing. But that info is old as well.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Holy sheep sh!t $130K to fly a -200 with paid rotations and matched RRSP?! Why would a person ever go to FlAirWestJazEnc?
It does not make much difference, but I am just going to point out they originally posted their pay scales (I think it was in the Employment forum, originally) a week or two before this thread began. I was shocked to see such a forthright post about pay from an operator.
Holy sheep sh!t $130K to fly a -200 with paid rotations and matched RRSP?! Why would a person ever go to FlAirWestJazEnc?
It does not make much difference, but I am just going to point out they originally posted their pay scales (I think it was in the Employment forum, originally) a week or two before this thread began. I was shocked to see such a forthright post about pay from an operator.
And we still have no shortage of pilots claiming we can't compare airline salaries to the US because "its a whole different market". We're getting pissed on and being told its rain. The worst part is that so many believe it.
IKEA_Monkey wrote: ↑Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:08 pm
Is this a website for airlines or for PILOTS?
FOR TOO LONG companies have been hiding behind cute little job ads that DO NOT LIST THEIR PAY! Last time I checked there's a growing labor shortage with a lot less ATPL's flying around! OUR LICENCES ARE IN DEMAND. This website should reflect that demand appropriately!
Therefore, it should be a requirement that all "free" job ads listed on AvCanada POST THEIR PAY. None of this mumbo jumbo about "work life balance" or "competitive pay packages". We all know that amounts to horse sh*t!
Let pilots make informed decisions! Promote pilot PAY!
This is the only industry that so heavily relies on secret Santa wages to keep DOC’s down. I agree it should be federal and provincial law to post remuneration in ads, what a crap industry were in!
Another big hurdle to get better wages is the current pay scales, partially intentionally created by the unions. If you wouldn't lose 75% of your salary when changing companies, you could have some real competition going on between companies to attract pilots.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Another day goes by ANOTHER half dozen FREE job ads for pilots!
Nothing but "industry leading" "competitive" and "comprehensive" wages! BULLSH*T!!!
Only add listing pay is for a Seair dockhand @ $18/hr in DOWNTOWN VANCOUVER! I made that TWENTY YEARS AGO swamping otters and diggin' shitters in FT. NOWHERE, NORTHERN ONTARIO!!!!
rookiepilot wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:50 pm
I can’t believe you highly trained guys work for a year, for what I’d be asked to pay a brainless airhead to sell my house, for 3 days work.
Talk about a cartel.
If you're paying $100000 commission to a realtor out of your sale, I don't think pilots are the ones being taken advantage of...
rookiepilot wrote: ↑Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:50 pm
I can’t believe you highly trained guys work for a year, for what I’d be asked to pay a brainless airhead to sell my house, for 3 days work.