Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

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photofly
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by photofly »

What’s the difference between a clandestine flight and a clandestine road trip? Why would flying require more security than getting in a car?
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by broken_slinky »

ICUP wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:43 am Oh clandestine flights have been successfully (and unsuccessfully) happening for a while now. Incidents like these may start tightening security among GA as seen in other parts of the world… unfortunate
Hopefully not. Those "other parts of the world" don't allow things like night time VFR flights, etc... There are always going to be naughty people doing naughty things in planes. No need to punish the rest of the GA community for the odd bad apple.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by digits_ »

ICUP wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 7:43 am Oh clandestine flights have been successfully (and unsuccessfully) happening for a while now. Incidents like these may start tightening security among GA as seen in other parts of the world… unfortunate
I'm curious. In what other parts of the world would this flight not have been possible?

I don't know of any Western country where you have a passport checked for a national flight from a small local airport.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by mmm..bacon »

PilotDAR wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 3:50 am I seems that the occupants were from a non traditional sector of our society:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.6441818

I expect that there were unusual pressures to continue a "private" (clandestine?) flight...
Says that both TSB and OPP are investigating. This stuff drives me wild. OPP I can see, as there might be other intel that can be gleaned from the connections between these jokers. But TSB - does it really matter? I'd say, from a nationalistic point of view, the universe did us all a favour by ending the oxygen thievery of these ne'er-do-wells. Haul their bodies out, and pass them on to next of kin, end of story..
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by digits_ »

mmm..bacon wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 9:22 am But TSB - does it really matter?
It makes a huge difference on flight safety if the pilot was either the criminal, willingly helping the criminal, or being forced to do so against his will.

Even if the investigation might be trivial, I would be happy that an investigation takes place.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by photofly »

I doubt the TSB will look into matters of criminality. But an accident where four deaths occurred needs investigation as to cause.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by Mike Flynn »

digits_ wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 9:27 am
mmm..bacon wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 9:22 am But TSB - does it really matter?
It makes a huge difference on flight safety if the pilot was either the criminal, willingly helping the criminal, or being forced to do so against his will.

Even if the investigation might be trivial, I would be happy that an investigation takes place.
I suspect the pilot was hour building and took the job in good faith. However very few Cherokee drivers are reckless enough to fly across remote parts at that time of the night four up in a PA28-140.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 9:42 am I doubt the TSB will look into matters of criminality. But an accident where four deaths occurred needs investigation as to cause.
Would a 'normal' hijacking without a crash fall under their jurisdiction for investigation?
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:04 am
photofly wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 9:42 am I doubt the TSB will look into matters of criminality. But an accident where four deaths occurred needs investigation as to cause.
Would a 'normal' hijacking without a crash fall under their jurisdiction for investigation?
If you look at the TSB's policy (https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/lois-acts/eve ... ences.html) then that would be an "incident" on the basis that "a crew member declares an emergency".
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by elonmusk »

pelmet wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:43 pm Thai news reports that he may have been suicidal. I wonder what he was doing in an Cherokee 140 with three other people. Perhaps the last few minutes of the flight were more interesting than initially thought.

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news- ... ice-looms/
He was on Canada's Most Wanted list. Likely can't fly commercial, so paid someone to fly him in a Cherokee.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by photofly »

elonmusk wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 1:23 pm
pelmet wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:43 pm Thai news reports that he may have been suicidal. I wonder what he was doing in an Cherokee 140 with three other people. Perhaps the last few minutes of the flight were more interesting than initially thought.

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news- ... ice-looms/
He was on Canada's Most Wanted list. Likely can't fly commercial, so paid someone to fly him in a Cherokee.
He should have been a bit more generous and hired himself a bigger airplane, then. Four up, a 140 won't have fuel to go far. A 140 isn't really an alternative to a commercial flight; driving would probably be a closer analogue.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by phillyfan »

[quote=digits_ post_id=1193668 time=1651773890 user_id=34065]
[quote=photofly post_id=1193653 time=1651768954 user_id=33762]
I doubt the TSB will look into matters of criminality. But an accident where four deaths occurred needs investigation as to cause.
[/quote]

Would a 'normal' hijacking without a crash fall under their jurisdiction for investigation?
[/quote]

Pretty sure hijacked pilots don't file flight plans? Only stupid criminals hiding from the law.
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J31
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by J31 »

Hmm that airplane was getting around.....

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/10259247
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by AirFrame »

J31 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:26 pm Hmm that airplane was getting around....
It was based in Ontario until last year, then has a new owner as of Dec 31 and based in the Lower Mainland of BC. The registered owner wasn't on the plane when it crashed, and it doesn't seem like any of them were related to her. So it's possible the plane was being offered for block time to Commercial students building time. The two pilots on board seem to be foreign students.

The plane apparently was loaded and left from Delta Airpark in the lower mainland on or around the 23rd of April. If it was some kind of clandestine flight, Delta would be a good insecure place to start from. Nobody would see you, and you could depart with transponder off and disappear east quite easily.

Flightaware tracks show that they used the transponder at least a few times enroute, including on the fatal leg, so either staying hidden wasn't really a concern, or someone wanted them to be seen.

Could the pilots have been coerced into taking the criminals for a ride? Or maybe the passengers hired them to fly to Ontario? It would be a great time-building trip for the Commercial students.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by J31 »

Very good theory.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by RatherBeFlying »

Wouldn't surprise me if the pilots were asking for signatures in their logbooks.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by PA32pilot »

Had lots of time to squak 7500 if hijacked.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by PilotDAR »

Had lots of time to squak 7500 if hijacked.
I can just imagine inside ATC: "Hey, there's 7500 squawk! Hmmm, it's going 100 knots?"
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by digits_ »

PilotDAR wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 7:37 am
Had lots of time to squak 7500 if hijacked.
I can just imagine inside ATC: "Hey, there's 7500 squawk! Hmmm, it's going 100 knots?"
"Ah well, it's over the bush. Might as well shoot it down, better safe than sorry! Wouldn't want it to reach Sioux Lookout City."
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by 7ECA »

Rumour has it, or rather it's being reported that one (or both) of the pilots was advertising chisel charters in this aircraft at some point. Apparently the owner was also the girl friend of one of the pilots on board the Cherrytree's last ride.

Needless to say, chisel charters for time building plus hauling two convicts around in absolutely not VFR WX was just asking for trouble.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by karmutzen »

Everybody was transporting passengers and freight with their private aircraft and private licenses during the fall floods in BC. And there is provision for some compensation in CARS (costs offset), conditions ignored by both the pilots and the regulators. Ratting out a fellow pilot, compiling evidence against them, has no place in my aviation world. Reeks of hypocrisy. We all built hours to start our careers somehow.
Every airline in the world carries some passengers that have committed some crime, and some of which have been convicted.
We don't know why the airplane crashed. Pilot decision to fly that route based on the information at hand, in an aircraft he was very familiar with and with a copilot. Flat ground, hold a heading and altitude for a few hours, VFR at both ends. Dark or not shouldn't make a difference.

None of us are saints.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by photofly »

karmutzen wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:13 pm Everybody was transporting passengers and freight with their private aircraft and private licenses during the fall floods in BC. And there is provision for some compensation in CARS (costs offset), conditions ignored by both the pilots and the regulators. Ratting out a fellow pilot, compiling evidence against them, has no place in my aviation world. Reeks of hypocrisy. We all built hours to start our careers somehow.
Every airline in the world carries some passengers that have committed some crime, and some of which have been convicted.
We don't know why the airplane crashed. Pilot decision to fly that route based on the information at hand, in an aircraft he was very familiar with and with a copilot. Flat ground, hold a heading and altitude for a few hours, VFR at both ends. Dark or not shouldn't make a difference.

None of us are saints.
Is it ok to fly overweight, too? Just curious.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by AirFrame »

karmutzen wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:13 pm Everybody was transporting passengers and freight with their private aircraft and private licenses during the fall floods in BC.
None of whom received compensation in contravention of any regulations. They were *volunteer* flights.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by cncpc »

7ECA wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 5:46 pm Rumour has it, or rather it's being reported that one (or both) of the pilots was advertising chisel charters in this aircraft at some point. Apparently the owner was also the girl friend of one of the pilots on board the Cherrytree's last ride.

Needless to say, chisel charters for time building plus hauling two convicts around in absolutely not VFR WX was just asking for trouble.
Vancouver Sun two days ago. Kim Bolan.

I don't believe either of them were convicts, but hundreds of thousands of people with convictions fly commercial every day, and as far as I know, this is the first crash. There are two issues. Why did it crash? That has to do with who the pilots were, not the passengers. I can't remember what the other issue is.

I used to haul convicts around. Never crashed. I never allowed them to be cuffed on the plane either. Sheriff's insisted on restraints, though, after an episode in an Islander bringing some gandydancer from the jail in Victoria over to Abbotsford. Not cuffed, grabbed a fire extinguisher, and did some harm to the pilot, who was sitting right in front of him.

Some guy dropped the dime on this operation to TC some time before and nothing was done.
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Re: Cherokee 140 near Sioux Lookout

Post by 7ECA »

cncpc wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:21 pm Vancouver Sun two days ago. Kim Bolan.

I don't believe either of them were convicts, but hundreds of thousands of people with convictions fly commercial every day, and as far as I know, this is the first crash. There are two issues. Why did it crash? That has to do with who the pilots were, not the passengers. I can't remember what the other issue is.

I used to haul convicts around. Never crashed. I never allowed them to be cuffed on the plane either. Sheriff's insisted on restraints, though, after an episode in an Islander bringing some gandydancer from the jail in Victoria over to Abbotsford. Not cuffed, grabbed a fire extinguisher, and did some harm to the pilot, who was sitting right in front of him.

Some guy dropped the dime on this operation to TC some time before and nothing was done.
I'm not suggesting the pilots were convicts, to the best of my knowledge they aren't. But, the two passengers absolutely are in addition to being wanted fugitives. It's one thing to haul around convicts for transfers, with proper precautions and what not - a whole other story to hauling fugitives in sketchy conditions...

I recall the story of the transfer up around Rupert how ever many years back in an Otter, where the convict evidently wasn't a fan of the service and exited mid-flight.

Sadly, not surprising knowing TC; although they may be having to recheck their files when the TSB comes knocking.
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