Flat pay and unions...

[CPT.HarshColdReality]

I think big things are about to happen with Jazz ALPA and ACPA. Things are on the move.

[Malfunction]

I hope, if anything happens it benifits both pilot groups. We are in this together.

[sportingrifle]

Capt.Harshcoldreality is correct, big changes are coming. And Cavalier understands what rudder doesn’t want to-AC desperately wants the highly qualified OTS applicants while they can still get them. We have no interest in starting a cadet program.

My personal opinion is that Air Canada’s backward new hire pay scale will disappear all on its own at the next contract. Hopefully ACPA in general, and the ChildrenForChange in particular, are smart enough to realize that they don’t have to spend their bargaining capital to achieve it.

[Fanblade]

the ChildrenForChange in particular

Why all the demographically derogatory comments about P4C. It’s not just your comments I refer to. It seems to be the standard rebuttal.

The C4C as you put it, are everywhere. Every seniority band. You share flight decks with them. They are your Captains, First Officers and RP’s. It’s not age that brought them together. It was a common belief that the backward WAWCON had to stop. That ACPA reps were behaving more like management than unionists.

At one point there was a published P4C supporter list. It was long. It had broad seniority support and had many ex committee members on it. Unfortunately it had to be taken down over harassment issues. It made people targets. So it’s underground.

Since then P4C has been painted as junior and inexperienced by the status quo. Much like what the YVR councillors just did. The YVR councillor’s were simply playing to their already slim support with their, we need to stay because the children for change are too inexperienced. That messaging is not only false it is also polarizing.

The reason you see, by in large more junior candidates, is because that is what the membership wanted. The demographics have changed. These more junior candidates are not young. Some are in their 40’s, and many have vast experience within unions prior to joining Air Canada. They know what a functional union looks like and works like.

[Fanblade]

My personal opinion is that Air Canada’s backward new hire pay scale will disappear all on its own at the next contract. Hopefully ACPA in general, and the ChildrenForChange in particular, are smart enough to realize that they don’t have to spend their bargaining capital to achieve it.

Now that I finished my rant.


We ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LET new hire wages simply change on their own. Nor do we use bargaining capital to change them. Exactly the opposite. We leverage this situation.

Put another way. You want to raise new hire wages? Great. In exchange we want x.

That is how C4C thinks. They think like……………..get this. Unionists.

Rudder is bang on. The company needs this. To solve the issue they need us. And we need a raise.

[rudder]

And Cavalier understands what rudder doesn’t want to-AC desperately wants the highly qualified OTS applicants while they can still get them. We have no interest in starting a cadet program.

I understand. But what I also know is that AC has entered in to binding agreements directly via the CHR CPA and indirectly via the Jazz ALPA CBA for a system that it feels may not be creating the experience pipeline that it desires. It perhaps simply reinforces that there may be a better arrangement. However, until that multilateral agreement happens, status quo hiring ratios prevail.

If Jazz continues to hire high percentage ‘direct entry’ college cadets this may become moot as at some point there will no longer be any Jazz candidates that meet the AC application minimums.

[Stu Pidasso]

C4C - now that's funny!

The Jazz flow through is going to be interesting. We certainly inherited some problem children, as a Jazz friend of mine said; " we sent most of the @ssholes to AC."

250 hours to get hired at Jazz, 24 months later get hired at AC and for (some - not all) quite a sense of entitlement.

Flight Ops Management is not a lover of the deal, it was pretty much crammed down their throats.

[rudder]

Flight Ops Management is not a lover of the deal, it was pretty much crammed down their throats.

That sounds about the same reaction as the Jazz pilots to Contract 2015 and Contract 2018.

Don’t worry, they’ll get over it. Or they could be proactive and try to fix it.

Is the same attention being devoted by ‘Flight Ops Management’ to fixing flat pay at AC? Or is it considered ideal to fill WB FO vacancies with new-hires at $59k/yr?

[Fanblade]

Flight Ops Management is not a lover of the deal, it was pretty much crammed down their throats.

The over riding reason for the deal was, and still is, economics. People flowing through Jazz, rather than staying and climbing the payscales, is part of what keeps Jazz’s costs down. It drastically reduced the turnstile at the bottom of the list to Encore and others. As a pilots shortage looms, career progression “carrots” will be increasingly used for retention.

But on to your problem children comments.

Perhaps if Air Canada doesn’t want the problem children from Jazz? They do Jazz’s hiring in the first place. Of course AC did interview these people prior to flow through. So maybe that’s not the actual problem.

If ACPA or AC management still think this is a problem child issue? They have a rude awakening coming.

Just look at the last election results and the latest recall. In YVR at least 2/3 of the pilots who voted must be problem children. That must mean at least 80% or greater of the recent hires are problem children.

Perhaps there is another explanation?

Perhaps the real issue is AC has been too successful in capitalizing on ACPA’s willingness to give. Maybe AC has been overindulging in its “relationship” with ACPA.

[BingBong]

That must mean at least 80% or greater of the recent hires are problem children.

The preferred politically correct term is now dipshits…I’m ordering flight bag stickers

[eurotrash]

My personal opinion is that Air Canada’s backward new hire pay scale will disappear all on its own at the next contract. Hopefully ACPA in general, and the ChildrenForChange in particular, are smart enough to realize that they don’t have to spend their bargaining capital to achieve it.

So if, and I am just speculating, the recall vote fails, especially if it fails by more than 50%, what are the LEC councillors going to do? By rights they should all resign on mass. They started this whole deal because they couldn't work with the chair and vice chair. If the tribe speaks and keeps the chair and vice chair, they have to resign. But I bet they won't.

So have you emailed your base chairs asking them to resign yet?


SportingRifle:

I repeat - have you emailed your base reps yet asking them to resign or do you think this is good governance?

Or are you part of the new legion " Senior Pilots Acting as Selfish Zealots"?

SPAASZ

[sportingrifle]

Euro trash….oh wow, I didn’t realize that I touched a nerve.

I haven’t emailed anybody to resign simply because by and large, I stay fairly far from union politics. While I appreciate the P4C groups desire for change, and agree that ACPA has missed numerous opportunities to improve the Air Canada pilots lot in life, the ignorance of the P4C group is scary. They don’t understand airline union history, Canadian labor law, or AC management. Kinda like somebody who just solo’s a C-152 jumping in the “Triple.”

Ultimately, whatever they achieve, good or bad, won’t really affect me. I am a 777 training captain with less than a decade to go. I have walked two picket lines that produced some fundamental contract protections we all now take for granted, seen 4 recessions, one bankruptcy, one near bankruptcy, 3 attempts to outsource our jobs, 9-11, a merger, Covid, and a been a member of - and lied to by CALPA, ALPA, and ACPA - not to mention a pile of other unpleasant labour related events.
I have privately reached out to P4C but they seem to have little interest in hearing anything that doesn’t fit their narrative. Crickets. But I am old school and believe that piloting is a profession, not a job. And that we should leave the profession at the end of our careers in better shape than when we started our careers. I am truly sorry that you see this as “Senior Pilots Acting As Selfish Zealots.”

[Arnie Pye]

Capt.Harshcoldreality is correct, big changes are coming. And Cavalier understands what rudder doesn’t want to-AC desperately wants the highly qualified OTS applicants while they can still get them. We have no interest in starting a cadet program.

My personal opinion is that Air Canada’s backward new hire pay scale will disappear all on its own at the next contract. Hopefully ACPA in general, and the ChildrenForChange in particular, are smart enough to realize that they don’t have to spend their bargaining capital to achieve it.

When it does, I'll apply. As long as the starting pay is $50k I'll stay where I am and begrudgingly pay twice that in tax. After 15 years doing this for a living, I can't see going back to making anything less than $100k.

[ReturnoftheMike]

Euro trash….oh wow, I didn’t realize that I touched a nerve.

I haven’t emailed anybody to resign simply because by and large, I stay fairly far from union politics. While I appreciate the P4C groups desire for change, and agree that ACPA has missed numerous opportunities to improve the Air Canada pilots lot in life, the ignorance of the P4C group is scary. They don’t understand airline union history, Canadian labor law, or AC management. Kinda like somebody who just solo’s a C-152 jumping in the “Triple.”

Ultimately, whatever they achieve, good or bad, won’t really affect me. I am a 777 training captain with less than a decade to go. I have walked two picket lines that produced some fundamental contract protections we all now take for granted, seen 4 recessions, one bankruptcy, one near bankruptcy, 3 attempts to outsource our jobs, 9-11, a merger, Covid, and a been a member of - and lied to by CALPA, ALPA, and ACPA - not to mention a pile of other unpleasant labour related events.
I have privately reached out to P4C but they seem to have little interest in hearing anything that doesn’t fit their narrative. Crickets. But I am old school and believe that piloting is a profession, not a job. And that we should leave the profession at the end of our careers in better shape than when we started our careers. I am truly sorry that you see this as “Senior Pilots Acting As Selfish Zealots.”

Well done SportingRifle

Put these immature imbeciles of colic crying children in place. These kids, in their 40s & 50s know nothing other than to fill tissues with stories of pay & US airlines compensation. Back in my day I was filling up tissues from my stash of Hustlers & dirty audio tapes and didnt have time for such drivel. One day they will realize how lucky they are to be at a Flag Carrier and not Flair, who don't play fair by paying their FOs more

We walked uphill both ways barefoot when we were hired at 19 and righteously should rule the fiefdom as Knights with swords at the flight ops roundtable. These jesters are fools to think our great airline can afford to pay more to this profession and fail to support the corporate overlords. We need to keep the corporation close as they have done more for this profession than any union. Unions simply hinder an operation and impede corporate bonuses. Us likeminded "old school" scholars must continue to keep close friends to the executive emperors so as to battle off this malicious mutiny.

These blabbering babies' narratives of bettering a union through transparency, accountability & communication might look good in a book but we both know our experiences simply cannot be learned or read. These kids might have fancy diplomas & degrees, but do they know how to brag about your airplane AND boat to a guy who got furloughed that made more digging out basements?

Hopefully these fanatical fools of kids do the right thing and move over to the righteous rulers before they do anymore damage. We don't got much time left and certainly don't need to be bothered with this ceaseless & harassing tripe. It is interfering with my time for my family which really means spending time putting these twits in place on forums

[alkaseltzer]

How much proportional representation is there for pilots on flat pay?

If almost 50% of the pilots are on flat pay….

[ReturnoftheMike]

How much proportional representation is there for pilots on flat pay?

If almost 50% of the pilots are on flat pay….

Shhhh you simpleton

Dirty Mike & the boyz got you covered

My boyz are earning their cottage displacements, you don't worry. Move along now before I have to alert the Corp of any ruckus

Mike

[alkaseltzer]

[quote=alkaseltzer post_id=<a href="tel:1199083">1199083</a> time=<a href="tel:1655476460">1655476460</a> user_id=58347]
How much proportional representation is there for pilots on flat pay?

If almost 50% of the pilots are on flat pay….

Shhhh you simpleton

Dirty Mike & the boyz got you covered

My boyz are earning their cottage displacements, you don't worry. Move along now before I have to alert the Corp of any ruckus

Mike
[/quote]

I get your drift. Maybe we should put Tony Ledsham and some tigers in a cage and release them at your cottage home?

Lolz

[ReturnoftheMike]

Your comedic pursuits are noted but ultimately fruitless.

[altiplano]

How right TL was in all of this.

Driven over the edge perhaps, but he was screaming out loud at what was going on at the highest levels - collusion in the gutting of our pay and contract while these guys paid themselves - and AC pilots just turned their heads.

I hope everyone that thought his outbursts were distasteful without looking deeper, you that supported his censure remember that and what has since gone on. It's on you.

[FL030]

Make sure you fill out the current company employee survey and let them know how flat pay has affected you.

[NEJO79]

What is AC’s policy on LOAs? Is It possible to go on an LOA a year or so after being hired to work a more lucrative contract in Asia (when they start hiring again) while holding a seniority number then return a few years later when you can hold a decent line or upgrade to Captain? I assume years of service would be frozen but at least you would be more senior and have more options for a schedule or upgrades?

[PostmasterGeneral]

What is AC’s policy on LOAs? Is It possible to go on an LOA a year or so after being hired to work a more lucrative contract in Asia (when they start hiring again) while holding a seniority number then return a few years later when you can hold a decent line or upgrade to Captain? I assume years of service would be frozen but at least you would be more senior and have more options for a schedule or upgrades?

With Barb gone, and with the way things are going right now, I reckon you'd have almost no chance at an LOA unfortunately.

[Sharklasers]

What is AC’s policy on LOAs? Is It possible to go on an LOA a year or so after being hired to work a more lucrative contract in Asia (when they start hiring again) while holding a seniority number then return a few years later when you can hold a decent line or upgrade to Captain? I assume years of service would be frozen but at least you would be more senior and have more options for a schedule or upgrades?

There is no chance of that

[200Above]

What is AC’s policy on LOAs? Is It possible to go on an LOA a year or so after being hired to work a more lucrative contract in Asia (when they start hiring again) while holding a seniority number then return a few years later when you can hold a decent line or upgrade to Captain? I assume years of service would be frozen but at least you would be more senior and have more options for a schedule or upgrades?

Roughly 38 pilots were approved LOA's since bid 22-01. Pilots who had a bond or employment contract were approved LOA's. I hear if you didn't have one of these documents, you had to come back or resign (26 pilots resigned since the last bid, FYI)

My LOA was approved and I'll have to come back Aug 2023. I haven't flown in two years.