Play The Long Game

[cdnavater]

..

It's not all math and career earnings..

- The most tax efficient earning is exactly your average career earnings. So rather than 80KFO and 320K CA, you're keeping more net making 200K over two years. Of course this isn't possible as a pilot but your calculations do not account for this. On the longer scale, lifetime earnings matter of course but the smaller the split, the more tax favourable it will become.

- Each raise does not carry the same $ value like your example suggests. If you have fixed costs of $4000/month and make $5000/month, a raise to $6000/month effectively doubles your spendable income, while if you have fixed costs of $9000/month and make $18000/month, the raise to $22000 is bigger in absolute terms but has a smaller percentage impact on your life.

- It's not just money that matters more now, it's time. Many potential AC pilots are at the stage of life where it makes sense to buy a property and start a family. These new rates do not support that lifestyle for new hires. If you need to wait until year 5 to buy a house or have a kid, that time is gone and no amount of money on the top end can buy that back.

- Industry standard ratio is 66% CA/FO. My view is that you want to be able to create a comfortable atmosphere in the cockpit and captains should support this ratio. Not to mention it provides more choice in career progression.

As someone on the outside here I think a solution would be to adjust the ratio to 66% regardless if that means taking some from the top end (although ideally not), after that the focus really should be on clarifying QOL stuff. 100% DH's as an example. Flexibility to drop x hours per month if desired, vacation adjustment immediately, minimum daily pay not on an averaged basis, etc.

Also why do you call people names?

I don’t usually start that and sometimes, it needs to happen, a poster above called me a limp wristed coward among other things before the moderator trimmed his post.
Its Avcanada, need I say more!
I offered that poster the chance to say it in person, have not heard back yet

[PA-18]

Ok, just so everyone understands, ALPA does not reward juniority. Never has, Never will. Nor will your employer. You have to earn that. The 4 years went to 2. That’s a start. You will be rewarded over the longevity of your career. It’s pretty simple. Many years ago guys had 10-15 years under their belt before starting out at AC. What’s it now 4-5 years in the industry? Maybe less? Short term pain for long term gain. Many More pilots are sitting at the 12 year mark and everyone will get there. Raises start at the top and trickle down. That’s how she goes.

[DanWEC]

Low pay for junior Air Canada pilots poses possible hurdle to proposed deal https://www.thestar.com/business/low-pa ... 24a0c.html

It's a paywall, I only saw half the article- not a Tostar subscriber. But ya get the gist. Interesting it made the media.

[PA-18]

Good luck to you, sincerely. I flew the Mighty Dash for 10 years and loved it - until I didn't. Flew the E-190-for 14 years and loved it - until I didn't. I called you "inexperienced" in the same way I considered myself "inexperienced" at 20,000 hours because I'd never experienced overseas flying. When I did - I regretted not doing it earlier. I've never been more tired than when I got senior and could hold transcon turns on the 190. Nothing I do on the WB comes close.

Fair enough. Hopefully you’re happy with the choices you made. I’ve certainly been looking at the ones I’ll have to make and can honestly say AC doesn’t seem like the clear number one choice that they still seem to think they are. A lot of people I know at my operation are planning on staying, and sure there will be some that go (the ones still living in their parents basement with no kids or mortgage probably) but I seriously think AC is too ignorant to realize the pipeline will dry up and dry up fast. Anyone who puts their ego aside and looks at things rationally can certainly make a strong argument either way.

If this TA fixed the bottom of the scale for FO’s I have no doubt AC could vacuum up almost every pilot in the industry, but they didn’t.

It is kind of weird when you think about the top vs bottom of the pay scale.

Looking at it from the company's side, you'd think they would want to attract young pilots as much as they can. Especially if it's true that the new classes are full of low experience and the resume pile is getting thin. That 12 year 77 CA isn't going anywhere. They aren't quitting if they get 100k raise, 50k, or 0. They still won't leave. The new guys on the other hand, they don't have anything to lose. And anyone thinking of applying from another carrier does, and this alone will make that decision easy. So yes, the union sold out the new guys, but even from the company's side this makes little sense in the short, and long term.

The union did not sell out the new guys. And yes to a certain extent maybe the company would have rather put more money on new hires than senior guys and I’m glad ALPA didn’t let that happen. Think about it. A pilot will only spend 1 year at each pay step until yr 12. After that you are on year 12 with YOS pay for the rest of your career. It’s a no brainer where to put the money IMHO. Especially now that guys are coming in who are generally younger and will spend more years at top of pay scale.

[PA-18]

Low pay for junior Air Canada pilots poses possible hurdle to proposed deal https://www.thestar.com/business/low-pa ... 24a0c.html

It's a paywall, I only saw half the article- not a Tostar subscriber. But ya get the gist. Interesting it made the media.

You can read it on BNN. No paywall. There’s actually a couple quote’s from this forum. Keep it professional. Everyone’s lookin.

[digits_]

Raises start at the top and trickle down. That’s how she goes.

250k vs 58k wasn't enough of a difference that it needed to become 350k vs 87k?

[PA-18]

Raises start at the top and trickle down. That’s how she goes.

250k vs 58k wasn't enough of a difference that it needed to become 350k vs 87k?

You’re looking at it in the wrong light. A 12+yr pilot only benefits from 1 raise. A new hire will benefit from 12 years of raises and beyond. You will spend more time at year 12 than year 1. It’s that simple.

[5degrees]

Raises start at the top and trickle down. That’s how she goes.

250k vs 58k wasn't enough of a difference that it needed to become 350k vs 87k?

You’re looking at it in the wrong light. A 12+yr pilot only benefits from 1 raise. A new hire will benefit from 12 years of raises and beyond. You will spend more time at year 12 than year 1. It’s that simple.

Why not fix the major pay gap right now. In 4 years time once the FO wage is livable and attracts enough talent,fine do a bigger increase at the top and the raise will still at least cover inflation for the juniors. Dunno why people are hell bent on once again setting the bar low.

[PA-18]

250k vs 58k wasn't enough of a difference that it needed to become 350k vs 87k?

You’re looking at it in the wrong light. A 12+yr pilot only benefits from 1 raise. A new hire will benefit from 12 years of raises and beyond. You will spend more time at year 12 than year 1. It’s that simple.

Why not fix the major pay gap right now. In 4 years time once the FO wage is livable and attracts enough talent,fine do a bigger increase at the top and the raise will still at least cover inflation for the juniors. Dunno why people are hell bent on once again setting the bar low.

Well I do agree. But the only right way to get rid of the gap is eliminate the bottom few years all together. You still want the biggest raise to be at the top where you will spend most of your time…. But to get the big raise at the top you need to lower the bottom. It’s a balance. Luckily the first few years go by quickly.

[thepoors]

But to get the big raise at the top you need to lower the bottom. It’s a balance. Luckily the first few years go by quickly.

No you don't... The US carriers have proved this. They actually value their FOs instead of treating them like second rate employees.

[digits_]

Raises start at the top and trickle down. That’s how she goes.

250k vs 58k wasn't enough of a difference that it needed to become 350k vs 87k?

You’re looking at it in the wrong light. A 12+yr pilot only benefits from 1 raise. A new hire will benefit from 12 years of raises and beyond. You will spend more time at year 12 than year 1. It’s that simple.

Oh please. He only 'benefits' from 12 years of raises because the union doesn't want to give people the full pay right away.

There's absolutely no economical reason why you need a 12 year pay scale as a pilot. 10k or 20k or 30k hours doesn't make a measurable difference. After a couple of years you (should) know the plane and company you're flying at. You could easily have a 2 year or 5 year payscale if the union wanted that. That would of course result in the top level pay being a bit lower, and thus gets blocked by the current top.

But that's all it is: politics, because they can. If that's the way it is, fine, can't do much but accept it, but save those ridiculous attempts at justification please. You really can't.

[yowflyer23]

250k vs 58k wasn't enough of a difference that it needed to become 350k vs 87k?

You’re looking at it in the wrong light. A 12+yr pilot only benefits from 1 raise. A new hire will benefit from 12 years of raises and beyond. You will spend more time at year 12 than year 1. It’s that simple.

Oh please. He only 'benefits' from 12 years of raises because the union doesn't want to give people the full pay right away.

There's absolutely no economical reason why you need a 12 year pay scale as a pilot. 10k or 20k or 30k hours doesn't make a measurable difference. After a couple of years you (should) know the plane and company you're flying at. You could easily have a 2 year or 5 year payscale if the union wanted that. That would of course result in the top level pay being a bit lower, and thus gets blocked by the current top.

But that's all it is: politics, because they can. If that's the way it is, fine, can't do much but accept it, but save those ridiculous attempts at justification please. You really can't.

That’s how it works at Qantas on the 787. 4 year pay-scale. In 2023, FO starts at 250.82 and ends at 270.10. Captain at $380.03 and ends at $409.26. Our dollars are worth virtually the same (AUD to CAD valued at 0.92 right now). They also have a sparse population spread over vast distances and have a high COL. Somehow their airline can afford to pay proper salaries. Rest of the fleet is on a 12 year scale, not sure why, but still very respectable salaries.

https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/ ... Zg2#page94

[aircanadaaintgotme]

Good luck. Long game here we come!

[aircanadaaintgotme]

Stand together with the vote!

[just clearing the trees]

You will spend more time at year 12 than year 1. It’s that simple.

Bingo. How many kids who failed the marshmallow test ended up as AC FOs?

It's amazing how quickly the knives come out in a group of anonymous online pilots. If your flat pay wages are so untenable, why did you accept them in the first place? I doubt a 30 year WB captain had a gun to your head. It's far more likely that you looked at a 30 year WB captain's wages and working conditions and thought, "I want that" before lying to yourself that the years of dog shit pay/schedule/lifestyle it would take to get there, wouldn't be so bad. You made this career decision. Senior captains didn't do this to you. Your union didn't do this to you. The company didn't do this to you. You knowingly did this to yourself. Do you want 20 years of top end AC pay or not? This was the shit sandwich you always knew you were going to have to eat to get there. Did you not realize how the real world works, and thought the union could wave a magic wand and grant you a $200k, year 1 FO dream job out of nothing? Stop lying to yourself. And in the meantime, you can still vote no. So do that. But don't lose sight of the level that the bulk of your career will be at. Or do. Whatever, I don't care. But you're doing a disservice to your own cause by fantasizing about taking from your more senior coworkers to shortcut your own path.

[currysonic]

I just want to add, the CWIPP pension is compounded. More you make earlier on the higher your pension. Later on doesn’t make much difference.

Heck by the time you reach top scale maybe a recession will require a claw back.

By the time you reach top scale maybe your spouse grew resentful from the years of sacrifice.

Maybe by the time you reach top scale your kids grew up and you never had much of a relationship with them. Assuming you can even have kids by the time you can afford them.

Hey maybe by the time you reach top scale your parents died. And you never had the chance to help them out financially or ease their burdens.

At least now you’re 40/50 something, with the rest of your life ahead of you at top scale!

[TheStig]

There's absolutely no economical reason why you need a 12 year pay scale as a pilot. 10k or 20k or 30k hours doesn't make a measurable difference. After a couple of years you (should) know the plane and company you're flying at. You could easily have a 2 year or 5 year payscale if the union wanted that. That would of course result in the top level pay being a bit lower, and thus gets blocked by the current top.

But that's all it is: politics, because they can. If that's the way it is, fine, can't do much but accept it, but save those ridiculous attempts at justification please. You really can't.

Year 1 Captains make 89.55% percent of year 12 rates, that basically is one pay scale.

[TheStig]

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter. My seniority is great, it’s the type of flying I want, the pay won’t be that far off from the AC equivalent for equipment. Maybe the most important part is I’ll still be able to afford rent each month for the next couple years anyone justifying those starting wages are obviously older and don’t understand the COL crisis younger pilots (and our generation as a whole) have to contend with.

We can see from this TA that AC doesn't want to attract Porter Captains, Flair Captains and it certainly wants the Captains it has left at Jazz to stay there. Air Canada is content to hire First Officers from Porter, Flair and Jazz. The pay tables, changes to per diem, and ADG demonstrate that it's trying to bait senior FO's into upgrading through both Captain loaded pay scales and QOL improvements to junior narrow body schedules.

[khedrei]

You will spend more time at year 12 than year 1. It’s that simple.

Bingo. How many kids who failed the marshmallow test ended up as AC FOs?

It's amazing how quickly the knives come out in a group of anonymous online pilots. If your flat pay wages are so untenable, why did you accept them in the first place? I doubt a 30 year WB captain had a gun to your head. It's far more likely that you looked at a 30 year WB captain's wages and working conditions and thought, "I want that" before lying to yourself that the years of dog shit pay/schedule/lifestyle it would take to get there, wouldn't be so bad. You made this career decision. Senior captains didn't do this to you. Your union didn't do this to you. The company didn't do this to you. You knowingly did this to yourself. Do you want 20 years of top end AC pay or not? This was the shit sandwich you always knew you were going to have to eat to get there. Did you not realize how the real world works, and thought the union could wave a magic wand and grant you a $200k, year 1 FO dream job out of nothing? Stop lying to yourself. And in the meantime, you can still vote no. So do that. But don't lose sight of the level that the bulk of your career will be at. Or do. Whatever, I don't care. But you're doing a disservice to your own cause by fantasizing about taking from your more senior coworkers to shortcut your own path.

It's a nice analogy and I was waiting for someone to try and use it here. Congrats on being the first one.

It doesnt apply here. I'm surprised I have to explain it yet again. Today's money is worth more than tomorrows. And so is today's quality of life.

If you wait 10 minutes for the second marshmallow, it can't grow new marshmallows while you are eating the first one. Getting more money now can be invested, pay off debt and basically be used to increase your value. Until you can start paying your bank with IOUs, this doesn't apply. Do you want to use potatoes instead?

The yes votes seem to be coming out in full force now.

Anyone that thinks going from 60k to 120k now and 250-310k in 12 years is worse than going from 60k to 80k now and 250k to 350k in 12 years is already making 250k and wants 350k and doesn't care how much the guy on 60k is suffering. He's totally blind and probably on the NC.

[khedrei]

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter. My seniority is great, it’s the type of flying I want, the pay won’t be that far off from the AC equivalent for equipment. Maybe the most important part is I’ll still be able to afford rent each month for the next couple years anyone justifying those starting wages are obviously older and don’t understand the COL crisis younger pilots (and our generation as a whole) have to contend with.

We can see from this TA that AC doesn't want to attract Porter Captains, Flair Captains and it certainly wants the Captains it has left at Jazz to stay there. Air Canada is content to hire First Officers from Porter, Flair and Jazz. The pay tables, changes to per diem, and ADG demonstrate that it's trying to bait senior FO's into upgrading through both Captain loaded pay scales and QOL improvements to junior narrow body schedules.

Really? Improving schedules that have you working 9 more block hours per month? Serious question. How is that an improvement? Did the layovers improve? more GDOs?

And how are they attracting new FOs from Flair when Flair pays higher for 4 years straight.

[Bede]

There's absolutely no economical reason why you need a 12 year pay scale as a pilot.

There actually is. A low ended encourages the company to grow so that the total wage expense is lower. Once thee airlines stops growing, unit costs increase.

Not that I agree, but thats the flip side.

The other thing is a flat captain rate. That forces new airlines to pay their captains more incrrasing their costs and lowering their competitiveness.

[digits_]

There's absolutely no economical reason why you need a 12 year pay scale as a pilot.

There actually is. A low ended encourages the company to grow so that the total wage expense is lower. Once thee airlines stops growing, unit costs increase.

Not that I agree, but thats the flip side.

The other thing is a flat captain rate. That forces new airlines to pay their captains more incrrasing their costs and lowering their competitiveness.

You can have a flat rate without it costing more. It all depends on how you divide the money between the employees.

[digits_]

There's absolutely no economical reason why you need a 12 year pay scale as a pilot. 10k or 20k or 30k hours doesn't make a measurable difference. After a couple of years you (should) know the plane and company you're flying at. You could easily have a 2 year or 5 year payscale if the union wanted that. That would of course result in the top level pay being a bit lower, and thus gets blocked by the current top.

But that's all it is: politics, because they can. If that's the way it is, fine, can't do much but accept it, but save those ridiculous attempts at justification please. You really can't.

Year 1 Captains make 89.55% percent of year 12 rates, that basically is one pay scale.

Great, now do the same for the FOs!

[khedrei]

There's absolutely no economical reason why you need a 12 year pay scale as a pilot. 10k or 20k or 30k hours doesn't make a measurable difference. After a couple of years you (should) know the plane and company you're flying at. You could easily have a 2 year or 5 year payscale if the union wanted that. That would of course result in the top level pay being a bit lower, and thus gets blocked by the current top.

But that's all it is: politics, because they can. If that's the way it is, fine, can't do much but accept it, but save those ridiculous attempts at justification please. You really can't.

Year 1 Captains make 89.55% percent of year 12 rates, that basically is one pay scale.

Great, now do the same for the FOs!

Sorry, how does FOs making more money help me buy my new boat? I'm a captain... I don't understand....

[Dockjock]

I’d support a new hire pay matrix based on experience level. I would like to attract other airlines’ captains, sure. But we also need a mix of newer, younger people as well. Because when older, experienced pilots start afresh, they can become frustrated by the lack of progression that inevitably comes, relative to their former position. Especially if they’re paid the same as somebody with a quarter of their own experience. That’s the biggest injustice imo, at least upon hiring, paying everyone the same when some have 2000 hrs and no degree and no multi time, and another has a jet type rating, university degree, military experience, other 705 experience, and 7000 hrs.

But if you’re mad about where you live, your age, your marital status, your dependants status, your parents financial status, those are YOUR crosses to bear. Vote your issues and don’t fault anyone else for voting theirs. I think the senior pilots here all put vast amounts of thought and compassion towards the younger guys- down to day to day things like buying drinks, tipping the drivers, buying coffee, to bigger things like fixing DC pension (twice already, leaving DB untouched for 10+ years), improving and then actually eliminating LOU74, the former socialized profit sharing (soon to be totally socialized because nobody will get it, congrats), 30% pay cut during COVID (when we were NOT deemed surplus).

Does this go far enough. Eh, maybe not. That’s quite simply not my issue. If the airline has trouble hiring that is their issue. There’s nobody in ground school, and no qualified applicants, and they still have their heads in the sand apparently. Vote your issues and I’ll vote mine. Believe me there are plenty still here without being brow beaten by some know nothing who’s been here for a minute.

To soften this a little, I’m not mad. But your issues will be better taken up without blaming people who are not to blame.