Moonlighting while at AC

[Victory]

The only money that is yours is what is in your bank.

Walk in and ask for your money. See how that goes.

[thepoors]

$78K isn't "the wage":- $87.48/hr is and we are paid by the hour and I don't think anyone is doing 75 hour months every month.

Exactly. Why would you want to work that much?

Plus probably about 20 hours of training pay on top of blocks.

Training pay is just that, pay for training. That's not salary. Stop with this bs, it's as bad an argument as the per diems.

[cdnavater]

$78K isn't "the wage":- $87.48/hr is and we are paid by the hour and I don't think anyone is doing 75 hour months every month.

Exactly. Why would you want to work that much?

Plus probably about 20 hours of training pay on top of blocks.

Training pay is just that, pay for training. That's not salary. Stop with this bs, it's as bad an argument as the per diems.

What the fu ck are you talking about, training is paid for and part of your job, therefore it’s part of your salary

[thepoors]

$78K isn't "the wage":- $87.48/hr is and we are paid by the hour and I don't think anyone is doing 75 hour months every month.

Exactly. Why would you want to work that much?

Plus probably about 20 hours of training pay on top of blocks.

Training pay is just that, pay for training. That's not salary. Stop with this bs, it's as bad an argument as the per diems.

What the fu ck are you talking about, training is paid for and part of your job, therefore it’s part of your salary

Yes training is paid for... separately. It's not part of your base salary which is what this discussion was about. You're being obtuse. Do you consider the shoe allowance and dry cleaning allowance part of your salary too? Why are you arguing for something that's to your detriment?

[cdnavater]

Exactly. Why would you want to work that much?



Training pay is just that, pay for training. That's not salary. Stop with this bs, it's as bad an argument as the per diems.

What the fu ck are you talking about, training is paid for and part of your job, therefore it’s part of your salary

Yes training is paid for... separately. It's not part of your base salary which is what this discussion was about. You're being obtuse. Do you consider the shoe allowance and dry cleaning allowance part of your salary too? Why are you arguing for something that's to your detriment?

Ok, how about this, if training were inside the block, would you consider it as part of the salary?
Clearly, your problem is the fact it’s outside the block, but it’s not OT which is extra and not something you can count on, training MUST be done and you ARE paid for it, therefore part of your salary!
Shoe allowance, dry cleaning, etc. Yes, all part of the salary!
People need shoes, plenty of people don’t get a shoe allowance and it comes from their wages, why wouldn’t you include it as part of the package, you don’t pay for your benefits, plenty of others pay for their benefits. This increases your take home pay, part of the package! The company pension contributions are also part of the package!
If it’s included as salary by the CRA, it’s part of the SALARY!
Per diems, no, not part of the salary, however if it’s a good per diems that exceeds most others in the business, I would consider it as part of the total package.
At Jazz, in the training department all my per diems are considered “single day” pairings and because they are generally a 7 hour shift, I rarely get more than one meal. So, my per diems are at most 300/mth, line guys are getting 1300ish/month. I’m still away for 16 days a month, so it’s not not unreasonable to consider good per diems as part of the total package, so if not for the other benefits of being in the training department I would fair better as a line pilot.

[‘Bob’]

The only money that is yours is what is in your bank.

Walk in and ask for your money. See how that goes.

I did.. and they transferred it to my new accounts.

What.. do you think this is A Wonderful Life or Mary Poppins where it’s all cash in a vault but they don’t have enough to cover all withdrawals if there’s a run?

Hahahaha!!

[khedrei]

The only money that is yours is what is in your bank.

Walk in and ask for your money. See how that goes.

I did.. and they transferred it to my new accounts.

What.. do you think this is A Wonderful Life or Mary Poppins where it’s all cash in a vault but they don’t have enough to cover all withdrawals if there’s a run?

Hahahaha!!

You mean like the banks over leverage themselves and make all kinds of stupid investments? Like in The Big Short? Yeah, that stuff only happens in the movies.... JT would never make poor financial decisions like that not would he allow our institutions to behave in such a stupid way...

[altiplano]

Next, you'll be seeing that vacation isn't part of your pay...

Pee diems and expense allowances are different than taxable income.

[FelixGustof]

I just can't get over Air Canada pilots thinking a target benefit pension plan is superior to a Definited Benefit pension plan. What kind of snake oil is being sold over there??

[altiplano]

I just can't get over Air Canada pilots thinking a target benefit pension plan is superior to a Definited Benefit pension plan. What kind of snake oil is being sold over there??

It's in the numbers.

Unless you're a career under achiever that just shows up for your best 5 you are going to be better the CWIPP.

CWIPP isn't capped. DB is.
CWIPP gets guaranteed company contributions. DB doesn't.
CWIPP has been getting indexing and benefit bumps with surplus. DB hasn't. In fact DB surplus results in funding holidays for the company and was recently allowed to be drawn down by the company to pay off their other obligations.
CWIPP improves with your earnings. DB requires additional negotiations to get improvements.
CWIPP has double the membership of DB and is growing. DB has as many or more pensioners than contributors.

[khedrei]

I just can't get over Air Canada pilots thinking a target benefit pension plan is superior to a Definited Benefit pension plan. What kind of snake oil is being sold over there??

It's in the numbers.

Unless you're a career under achiever that just shows up for your best 5 you are going to be better the CWIPP.

CWIPP isn't capped. DB is.
CWIPP gets guaranteed company contributions. DB doesn't.
CWIPP has been getting indexing and benefit bumps with surplus. DB hasn't. In fact DB surplus results in funding holidays for the company and was recently allowed to be drawn down by the company to pay off their other obligations.
CWIPP improves with your earnings. DB requires additional negotiations to get improvements.
CWIPP has double the membership of DB and is growing. DB has as many or more pensioners than contributors.

I see what you mean here but saying DB doesn't get guaranteed company contributions is a bit misleading. They are required to keep it funded to a certain level. So yes that means they can take holidays on funding but on the flip side if the market ends up in the toilet they are required to cough up huge. And it's those situations that could have a DB end up paying more than the CWIPP (huge downturn, or it becomes insolvant). In theory its safer during tough times especially.

[rudder]

I just can't get over Air Canada pilots thinking a target benefit pension plan is superior to a Definited Benefit pension plan. What kind of snake oil is being sold over there??

It's in the numbers.

Unless you're a career under achiever that just shows up for your best 5 you are going to be better the CWIPP.

CWIPP isn't capped. DB is.
CWIPP gets guaranteed company contributions. DB doesn't.
CWIPP has been getting indexing and benefit bumps with surplus. DB hasn't. In fact DB surplus results in funding holidays for the company and was recently allowed to be drawn down by the company to pay off their other obligations.
CWIPP improves with your earnings. DB requires additional negotiations to get improvements.
CWIPP has double the membership of DB and is growing. DB has as many or more pensioners than contributors.

Here is a question - how does the CWIPP work around the RCT DB Benefit Limit (1/9 the money purchase limit). One of the reasons for the MPU’s associated with the DB Plan is to create a de facto SERP to offer an earned annual benefit that exceeds the RCT Limit. The DB is considered ‘registered’ and the SERP is considered non-registered.

2025 RCT Limit is $3756. $300k x 0.175 = $5250. Is it the case that since the benefit is not guaranteed that the RCT Limit does not apply?

I also believe that the DB Plan has a CPP offset. Is that the case? I presume that the CWIPP does not.

The AC pilots are unique in that they are (potentially) very high income earners vs other CWIPP members.

[Protonpilot]

I see what you mean here but saying DB doesn't get guaranteed company contributions is a bit misleading. They are required to keep it funded to a certain level. So yes that means they can take holidays on funding but on the flip side if the market ends up in the toilet they are required to cough up huge. And it's those situations that could have a DB end up paying more than the CWIPP (huge downturn, or it becomes insolvant). In theory its safer during tough times especially.

"if the market ends up in the toilet they are required to cough up huge."

That's the way it's supposed to work. Unfortunately that hasn't been our experience at Air Canada.

In the 15 years 2000-2015 Air Canada's pension plans got into trouble three times. And all three times the Company threw up their hands and said, 'We can't pay."

In 2003, with a $1B deficit they said they couldn't pay. The government responded like the mob boss in Goodfellas, and said "FYPM". So Air Canada declared bankruptcy and it was brutal for the pilots. 15% pay cuts, loss of vacation, a long list of concessions.

In 2009 another crushing deficit, once again they said, 'We can't pay." They were granted a 18 month payment moratorium from the government. No pension improvements negotiated.

In 2012, a $4B deficit, guess what they said. You guessed it, "We can't pay." This time, all unions closed their DB plans, and the pilots got a really crummy deal in FOS with higher contributions, no improvements to the pension cap and early retirement penalties.

Much of the above pain could have been avoided if the DB plans weren't subject to the solvency funding rules of the day.

If you're in a government pension, solvency funding is no big deal because the feds can just print more money. Not the case with a private company that is carrying a pension liability triple the capitalization of the company itself. A defined benefit plan is only as 'defined' as the plan sponsor's ability to backstop that obligation.

[Protonpilot]

Here is a question - how does the CWIPP work around the RCT DB Benefit Limit (1/9 the money purchase limit). One of the reasons for the MPU’s associated with the DB Plan is to create a de facto SERP to offer an earned annual benefit that exceeds the RCT Limit. The DB is considered ‘registered’ and the SERP is considered non-registered.

2025 RCT Limit is $3756. $300k x 0.175 = $5250. Is it the case that since the benefit is not guaranteed that the RCT Limit does not apply?

I also believe that the DB Plan has a CPP offset. Is that the case? I presume that the CWIPP does not.

The AC pilots are unique in that they are (potentially) very high income earners vs other CWIPP members.

Don't know what RCT is.

The newsletter we got from the negots committee in 2017 explained how the plan isn't subject to the usual limits on contributions and payout. It's because it's classified as a specified MEP, just like dozens of other plans in Canada.

Don't know about any CPP offset.

[Chateau]

The Snake Oil is strong here...wow amazing some of the stuff you read

I just can't get over Air Canada pilots thinking a target benefit pension plan is superior to a Definited Benefit pension plan. What kind of snake oil is being sold over there??

It's in the numbers.

Unless you're a career under achiever that just shows up for your best 5 you are going to be better the CWIPP.

This isn't true. The DB pension still out performs CWIPP. Especially considering the amount you have to contribute.

CWIPP isn't capped. DB is.

Sort of true.

CWIPP gets guaranteed company contributions. DB doesn't.

Lol...there is nothing guaranteed about "company contributions". In fact, any pay concession or change instantly affects your pension projection.

CWIPP has been getting indexing and benefit bumps with surplus. DB hasn't. In fact DB surplus results in funding holidays for the company and was recently allowed to be drawn down by the company to pay off their other obligations.

CWIPP funding has been going well. Just like all investments. So they have improved the benefit.

Problem is...what happens when the opposite happens? There is NO SOLVENCY requirement for CWIPP. They simply REDUCE the benefit. It is a TARGET.


CWIPP improves with your earnings. DB requires additional negotiations to get improvements.

But CWIPP needs to continue to improve earnings. Remember, any poor round of negotiations that results in poor pay increases or concessions immediately affects your pension. Bad year for fleet and low hours = less pension

CWIPP has double the membership of DB and is growing. DB has as many or more pensioners than contributors.

CWIPP is one quarter comprised of AC pilots. CWIPP has never had to pay out the pensions in those calculations. CWIPP won't have to do that for quite sometime. I think it would be foolish to trust any projection given we are a decade plus away from some real pensions coming out and 2 decades away from the large ones. One change in government policy and it could rapidly change. Not to mention any changes to the industry or crewing of airliners.

[rudder]

The Snake Oil is strong here...wow amazing some of the stuff you read

I just can't get over Air Canada pilots thinking a target benefit pension plan is superior to a Definited Benefit pension plan. What kind of snake oil is being sold over there??

It's in the numbers.

Unless you're a career under achiever that just shows up for your best 5 you are going to be better the CWIPP.

This isn't true. The DB pension still out performs CWIPP. Especially considering the amount you have to contribute.

CWIPP isn't capped. DB is.

Sort of true.

CWIPP gets guaranteed company contributions. DB doesn't.

Lol...there is nothing guaranteed about "company contributions". In fact, any pay concession or change instantly affects your pension projection.

CWIPP has been getting indexing and benefit bumps with surplus. DB hasn't. In fact DB surplus results in funding holidays for the company and was recently allowed to be drawn down by the company to pay off their other obligations.

CWIPP funding has been going well. Just like all investments. So they have improved the benefit.

Problem is...what happens when the opposite happens? There is NO SOLVENCY requirement for CWIPP. They simply REDUCE the benefit. It is a TARGET.


CWIPP improves with your earnings. DB requires additional negotiations to get improvements.

But CWIPP needs to continue to improve earnings. Remember, any poor round of negotiations that results in poor pay increases or concessions immediately affects your pension. Bad year for fleet and low hours = less pension

CWIPP has double the membership of DB and is growing. DB has as many or more pensioners than contributors.

CWIPP is one quarter comprised of AC pilots. CWIPP has never had to pay out the pensions in those calculations. CWIPP won't have to do that for quite sometime. I think it would be foolish to trust any projection given we are a decade plus away from some real pensions coming out and 2 decades away from the large ones. One change in government policy and it could rapidly change. Not to mention any changes to the industry or crewing of airliners.

Is there a commuted value option with CWIPP?

[Protonpilot]

Is there a commuted value option with CWIPP?

Yes, to a certain age. Believe it's age 55.

[altiplano]

The Snake Oil is strong here...wow amazing some of the stuff you read

I just can't get over Air Canada pilots thinking a target benefit pension plan is superior to a Definited Benefit pension plan. What kind of snake oil is being sold over there??

It's in the numbers.

Unless you're a career under achiever that just shows up for your best 5 you are going to be better the CWIPP.

This isn't true. The DB pension still out performs CWIPP. Especially considering the amount you have to contribute.

CWIPP isn't capped. DB is.

Sort of true.

CWIPP gets guaranteed company contributions. DB doesn't.

Lol...there is nothing guaranteed about "company contributions". In fact, any pay concession or change instantly affects your pension projection.

CWIPP has been getting indexing and benefit bumps with surplus. DB hasn't. In fact DB surplus results in funding holidays for the company and was recently allowed to be drawn down by the company to pay off their other obligations.

CWIPP funding has been going well. Just like all investments. So they have improved the benefit.

Problem is...what happens when the opposite happens? There is NO SOLVENCY requirement for CWIPP. They simply REDUCE the benefit. It is a TARGET.


CWIPP improves with your earnings. DB requires additional negotiations to get improvements.

But CWIPP needs to continue to improve earnings. Remember, any poor round of negotiations that results in poor pay increases or concessions immediately affects your pension. Bad year for fleet and low hours = less pension

CWIPP has double the membership of DB and is growing. DB has as many or more pensioners than contributors.

CWIPP is one quarter comprised of AC pilots. CWIPP has never had to pay out the pensions in those calculations. CWIPP won't have to do that for quite sometime. I think it would be foolish to trust any projection given we are a decade plus away from some real pensions coming out and 2 decades away from the large ones. One change in government policy and it could rapidly change. Not to mention any changes to the industry or crewing of airliners.

I think you're pushing the snake oil though.

This isn't true. The DB pension still out performs CWIPP. Especially considering the amount you have to contribute.

Fact is that CWIPP is a significantly higher payout for a similar career where the DB pilot upgrades or moves to WB FO by year 6. Especially with new wages now which have outpaced DB MPUs significantly.

Lol...there is nothing guaranteed about "company contributions". In fact, any pay concession or change instantly affects your pension projection.

Yes it is. Company contributions are guaranteed, it's right there in the letters at the back of the contract. And it's now improved to 11% contribution of every pensionable dollar you make. And contrary to another poster's idea, training pay is indeed part of your salary and is pensionable. So is any override, premium, draft... All pensionable and without limit.

More money, more pension, easy system. I like that. I like that I would contribute to my success, not some perennial RP that will then swoop in and take the triple ahead of me and then get the same pension as me despite the fact I've paid double into it.

If we're talking about a salary cut though which would result in a reduced payout towards your pension, by the same respects if a DBers best 5 under perform it affects their pension. Maybe a financial crisis that results in 20% wage cuts right before you move to the big seat for your best 5. Maybe slowdown and reduced blocks, maybe you get sick and end up on GDIP for your retirement. There's no recovery there, everything hinges on those best 5. You could have been 20 years a 320 CA and miss out on the best 5 any you're fucked.

Also DB relies on negotiated MPU gains which were inadequate for the last 20 years and were again in this round. CWIPP only requires more income in ones career and the focus can be on straight wage gains to lift one's pension. DB is blocked. DB needs negotiated MPU gains which the company has little interest in agreeing to even in times of record surplus.

The shit that this union is focusing on for DBers are the already retired and soon to retire... whether it's the immediate indexing rules benefiting them or the share trust sale that will be only for them... DBers down the road from that are fucked.

CWIPP funding has been going well. Just like all investments. So they have improved the benefit.

Yeah. The DB is over funded into the billions, but it hasn't improved the benefit. It requires company agreement to improve. And all we managed to do was convert some of our surplus to cover the company obligation and leverage something else in this round. We're selling DB surplus for wider contract gain.

And you mention solvency. What happens if the company has solvency issues? Good bye SRP for DBers. That isn't protected and 100% relies on the continuation of a profitable Air Canada. What did Buffet say about airlines again? There's is no guarantee that Air Canada will outlast me.

Ask any Delta or United guy today how they feel about their 18% being away from their airline? The best thing ever they will say.

AC thinks the DB money is their money and they control it.

[Ash Ketchum]

Got to take that early upgrade but who knows how long that will last. My guess is things slow down in the next 2 years with a possible recession on the horizon.

I thought that if you got an upgrade you have it for life unless there bid off or unless there is a layoff. I assume you are talking about layoff when you say you don't know how long it will last....?

Or can you be sent back to a yr3 (or whatever) FO spot?

I was referring to quick upgrades at AC not lasting forever, eventually new hires will have to ride out the full 4 years of flat pay. Even though years 3-4 aren't officially flat, it's still way less than it should be and the decent FO pay is still at year 5.

[Raymond Hall]

In answer to the original question...

Without missing a day of work, initially as a First Officer, then as a Captain, I completed three university degrees then completed my articles with the Law Society. Subsequently I worked full-time as legal counsel to several organizations not related to the airline.

No employer can preclude anyone from exercising their discretion to engage in any activity outside of their primary employment, so long as that exercise of discretion does not create a 'conflict of interest' with the employer's interests. Fill your boots, but guide yourself accordingly.

[olivierw]

Are you allowed to get a part-time job flying while employed as flight crew at AC?

TIA

I see your post got hijacked in true AvCanada fashion.

It is possible to get approval for flying on the side. Two summers ago, I was able to get approval for a few days throughout the summer. You need to make the request with a manager of line operations. They will ask exactly what kind of flying you will be doing, on what aircraft type, and for what operator. 705 operations are a no-go (ferrying 705 machines is a different story). If you do get approved, it will be conditional on not breaking any CARs, and giving them an annual report on your flying.

Keep in mind that Air Canada has very little to win by allowing its pilots to fly on the side. But they run the risk of temporarily or permanently losing those pilots if they get into an accident at their side job and end up under investigation from transport Canada. So if you do this, make sure you get approval and don’t mess it up for everyone else. This is a privilege that could be taken away.

[Blueontop]

Are you allowed to get a part-time job flying while employed as flight crew at AC?

TIA

I see your post got hijacked in true AvCanada fashion.

It is possible to get approval for flying on the side. Two summers ago, I was able to get approval for a few days throughout the summer. You need to make the request with a manager of line operations. They will ask exactly what kind of flying you will be doing, on what aircraft type, and for what operator. 705 operations are a no-go (ferrying 705 machines is a different story). If you do get approved, it will be conditional on not breaking any CARs, and giving them an annual report on your flying.

Keep in mind that Air Canada has very little to win by allowing its pilots to fly on the side. But they run the risk of temporarily or permanently losing those pilots if they get into an accident at their side job and end up under investigation from transport Canada. So if you do this, make sure you get approval and don’t mess it up for everyone else. This is a privilege that could be taken away.

Ya very little to win, like pilots making a decent living and giving their families a better life.

[piperdriver]

Keep in mind that Air Canada has very little to win by allowing its pilots to fly on the side. But they run the risk of temporarily or permanently losing those pilots if they get into an accident at their side job and end up under investigation from transport Canada. So if you do this, make sure you get approval and don’t mess it up for everyone else. This is a privilege that could be taken away.

I do not understand..... How is this a privilege if you are on time off? Jeses christ this is Canada not North Korea.