Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

[Tubthumper]

[SaskStyle]

Sk_pile_it....



There's a lot of rules in aviation...some broken will kill ya...others broken...well...will just embarress you...

and of those...no matter how much you love your managers/owners...dude...they're there only to make a buck off your flying....end of story...

those that are in the trenches with you day in and day out are those that are most important....

Saying that...seems like you have somewhat of an appreciation for those let go....but no opinion?

It's not an accident investigation...I mean when a plane goes down there's nothing but speculation on this forum as to the reasons...everyone's an armchair expert....yet here we have...(quoting a few, although maybe not exactly)..."a very good company" that has fired pilots from the 705 division? Given the nature of North American aviation....to get into there means you've put your time in with the company...and odds are, have a work ethic and professionalism to justify whatever seat you're in....

No one else thinks it a bit strange?

[Trippin @350]

The planes may look oldschool but the real question regarding management is...

WHY DID THE CHIEF PILOT QUIT?

I guess as a direct manager of Flt Ops, the Chief Pilot must have lost control. If this gentleman quit on his own merits then why? Was it upper management that forced him out? I would guess those guys seeking to improve working conditions and unable to voice themselves, thus seeking the structure of a union, are now unemployed and sent there without the consent of their Chief Pilot.

Wait till our transportation industry becomes globalized. We will be competing with American and European pilots for the same jobs. Labour laws will change and it sure sounds like this is in the works. Recall the announcement of the trade talks with EU last couple of weeks. I remember a time when our shipping industry had to have their ships registered in local countries. Now even X-Prime Minister Paul Martin has his boats registered somewhere where he does not pay tax.

How long before we all work for an Latin American registered airline? Air Canada already has a maintenance base there. Come to think of it, they even own Brazilian Airplanes.

[Astro]

hmmm....

How do the other stakeholders feel about this? ie Cameco, Areva, Prince Albert Grand Council, Meadow Lake Tribal Council

[teh_flyguy]

hmmm....

How do the other stakeholders feel about this? ie Cameco, Areva, Prince Albert Grand Council, Meadow Lake Tribal Council

Why would they care, am I missing something here? The aircraft are still flying so the mines must be happy. And since they are still flying they are still earning, so the Councils must be happy. I am willing to bet none of them give a dam. Is WW supposed to care when Cameco, Areva, PAGC or MLTC let a couple of guys go? They are seperate organizations that rely on each other to conduct thier own business, nothing more. Do not confuse business with emotion.

[square]

About these bonds.. if you get an upgrade do you have to sign another one?

[HO Driver]

I think what Astro was trying to say was the 705 department now has a time limit to replace the CP. If they can't find one TC may shut the ATRs down till they do. ATRs not flying means ATR not making money. Shareholders and other financially intrested parties may have an opinion with regards to whats been happening in the last few weeks.

[SaskStyle]

hmmm....

How do the other stakeholders feel about this? ie Cameco, Areva, Prince Albert Grand Council, Meadow Lake Tribal Council

Why would they care, am I missing something here? The aircraft are still flying so the mines must be happy. And since they are still flying they are still earning, so the Councils must be happy. I am willing to bet none of them give a dam. Is WW supposed to care when Cameco, Areva, PAGC or MLTC let a couple of guys go? They are seperate organizations that rely on each other to conduct thier own business, nothing more. Do not confuse business with emotion.

I think you should check your facts...

I stand to be corrected, but didn't MLTC or one of the bands that you quoted buy a significant portion of WestWind?

If so...their interests extend beyond simple day to day operations...if you buy close to controlling interest in any company, you would take notice if there was significant changes in the upper echelons...

You talk pretty casually about letting "a couple of guys go..." There is no question that seasonal demands and current economic situations affect a company's pilot roster. However, even when seniority isn't officially enforced, there is an unwritten code within the company ranks that those that have been at a company for the longer time, that the company has invested more money into with training costs, that operates the high performance, high profile aircraft...generally speaking...they are the last ones to be "let go."

So is it possible that you are missing something?

There is no emotion in questioning what's going on when the picture doesn't make sense. That's your job as a pilot when you're flying...now you throw that same philosophy out the window when it comes to company decisions?

Don't get me wrong....I have not worked for this company nor will I ever.

However what has me involved is that I have worked my way up through the aviation ranks and seen guys "let go" in the name of "seasonal demand." When the day before during a pilot's meeting that same pilot questioned management about having a day off mean just that....and not be forced to come in to do their part sacrificing personal quality of life.

Don't take what I said and put a spin on that I should have to do your part to help the company. We all have. But there are limits.

To respond to your statement too that "as long as the planes are still flying the customers will be happy."

That's so unbelievably naieve.

Would you want your family on an ATR that is now being driven by less experienced guys? Or better yet...driven by those that keep their mouth shut? I have never seen a good safety decision made by a "yesman". Only close calls and the occaisional CFIT. Yes...it's a stretch....but a company that has a contract with an aviation company should have EVERY reason to want to know that those flying their employees and family members are 1) not only the best qualified for the position, but 2) treated well enought that their mind is on the task at hand and not pissed off because they're late for their kid's birthday party because they HAD to come in on their day off...

I made that last part up...I have no idea what's going on....but like I said..the only experience I have when I've seen senior pilots get let go instead of downtraining is when they tried improving working conditions.

And when you see something similar happen...especially when a chief pilot leaves...

I think everyone should definately question what's going on...

[Roper]

Working conditions. Could be. If this is so, things will likely follow a certain course of action. The most common scenario is that that under a possible threat of union, suddenly management is now able to miraculously make numerous promises/concessions to keep the pilots happy - issues that could've/should've been dealt with long ago.

Unfortunately, we pilots often are victims of our own spinelessness. Not backing up those that may have been let go while trying to improve conditions (and therefore REALLY responsible for management's change-of-heart), follow like lemmings to that management 'promised land' - turning backs on those responsible for the work improvements that they will enjoy. (Promises made only when they felt they had no other recourse.) Then, what happens next time - and there likely will be a next time. Maybe not with this company but sometime and somewhere else. We need to learn not to feed on each other but learn to support the profession as a whole.

By the way, does this company not depend on union employees and union companies as a major part of their customer base? It seems that it's o.k. to take their money but it's beneath them have to join them.

[Carrier]

Who was "let go" and who walked of their own accord? Was it three ATR captains plus their CP?

[HO Driver]

2 senior Captains were let go and the CP resigned.

[Confidentiality]

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[Tubthumper]

HO Driver wrote:

2 senior Captains were let go and the CP resigned.
2 senior Captains were let go and the CP resigned.

Wrong.... 1 Senior and 1 Junior Captain, the CP resigned as the CP, but will do the job until they find a replacement, but still fly here as a line/training Captain.

[Trippin @350]

where do i sign? can i get a Great West with that $5?

[SaskStyle]

HO Driver wrote:

2 senior Captains were let go and the CP resigned.
2 senior Captains were let go and the CP resigned.

Wrong.... 1 Senior and 1 Junior Captain, the CP resigned as the CP, but will do the job until they find a replacement, but still fly here as a line/training Captain.

How is it wrong?

Whats makes someone Senior and one Junior?

The difference could be 10 years and 100 passengers, or a name drawn out of a hat before another...if they're both driving the same airplane, but one just got the upgrade...that would be considered a junior captain to the other...would it not?

Besides the semantics of what makes someone Junior vs Senior in a world where seniority doesn't really exist....the bottom line is that two skippers were let go....even if your "junior" captain wasn't on the same airplane....still doesn't make sense.

Where any reasons given as to why they were let go? Unsafe decisions? Showing up late? Showing up drunk? Repeatedly disregarding airplane SOPs/Company OPs?

In todays world of SMS.....you have to blatently disregard rules if you bend an airplane in order to be let go....theoretically of course...i mean its up to the CP to decide at the end of the day if what you did wrong deserves a ride to the curb....

But when he as well resigns from the management position right after two of his captains are let go...

And you say that he's staying on as line/training captain...Unless he's independently wealthy, there are still mortgages to pay and groceries to buy...Bottom line is he still needs a job.

There's not a lot of other 705 jobs in Saskatoon unless you try muscle your way in across the ramp....and uprooting the family isn't worth it to make a point.

Resigning from a position still sends a message that something's not right and he's not happy...

I got the message from your comment that you were trying to say it wasn't that big of a deal. It sounded to me like you were trying to impress that CP's resign to be line pilots all the time.

Yes it happens....but there are always other circumstances...personal or professional...and the timing in this situation is to coincedental to just assume he wanted more family time...that might very well be the case...and so be it if it is....

But there's rumours of unions, captains getting fired, and a CP resigns.

You seem to work there....whats really going on?

[Trippin @350]

where is the HR department in all of this?

SaskStyle you are right on with your assessment that the CP quitting means that he never had control of his department and this firing is a directive from above him.

does anyone know the guys that have been let go?

[Roper]

With a little research, it seems that the Abex Business Leader Award went to an individual of this company. Quite frankly, if that were the case, I would think that everyone would still be happily working there. Long term employees that have been promoted within the ranks over their time there, do not get let go unless there are some problems. Could it be that management thought that it was easier to get rid of them versus fixing issues that should be addressed. (Maybe that award should be returned!)

This might be an interesting debate - pros and cons of unions. You out there on the front lines could give some views here.
Personally, I feel that unions are there for the employees while the management is out there for themselves first.
Fire away those that work for companies that are unionized and those that aren't.

[Roper]

quote="Trippin @350"]where is the HR department in all of this?

SaskStyle you are right on with your assessment that the CP quitting means that he never had control of his department and this firing is a directive from above him.
[/u]
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Or, to play Devil's Advocate here, it could mean that management would not give him control of his department and he was tired of being a puppet for them.

[Trippin @350]

after a plethora of duty-free i say fcuk it !

so my question is why are these fag pilots not standing up for their others? why do we as an industry continue to accept this shit?

all u assholes with at CPL or ATPL are really pissing me off...

back to the rum. yes it was tax free and i am a proud CANADIAN!

[Trippin @350]

Roper,

I still wonder why HR of a sort-of big company hasn't stepped in to solve this issue. guys... pilots fired. chief pilots quitting... this is not good! so is HR in same position as the CP?

Roper even with your "so-what" statement, i say how can a union help when these fag pilots when they can't help themselves. it's easy to be labeled the "loud mouth" when ur the only pilot speaking what everyone wants to say, but in a union environment those lowest of hours and lowest of experience etc... are protected through the voice of a union.

I will admit that I am in a union; however, if one of my friends (pilot or not) got fired for no reason, I would cause shit! This one would not go unanswered.

GENTLEMEN... PLEASE UNDERSTAND ONE THING! PILOTS HOLD THE GREATEST TOOL IN AVIATION - THE PARKING BRAKE IS SET BY THE PIC OR CAPTAIN. ONCE SET IT CREATES NO REVENUE. THIS CREATES A "RIPPLE EFFECT"

Enuf said the ice in my rum is melting. You West Wind pilots are FAGS! Stand up for your others...

[KAFUFO]

I hate to say it but trippens got a point if every westwind plane stopped moving tommorow till those pilots were hired back what do you think would be the result?

having said that looking at the majors WJ would laugh at what their proposing. AC is loseing money with a union and I'd be willing to bet there are more millionairs at WJ then AC

happy employees are profitable employees

[ifr]

Heard that these employees were let go when the CP was away on holidays. (Makes you believe HR likely knew that the CP wouldn't be in agreement and would disagree with this decision.) Nice mess for him to have to come back to. You'd think if this was all legit and above board, when employees had been working at the company for over 6 - 10 years, this could have waited until their CP had gotten back.
Dirty, disrespectful, and makes no sense to the pilots let go or to the CP. Nice payback for years of devoting safety and service for the company......and they must have or they would not have been promoted over the years.

You'd think all employees would be watching their backs by now and be trying to bail as soon as they could. Obviously no one was there for the employees let go, as HR made sure their direct support and supervisor was away. Who could trust an HR department like that?

Words are just that - it's the actions that show the real picture.

[Trippin @350]

KAFUFO, the park brake idea only works if everyone, yes even those pilots who will do anything for a promotion, participates.

At WJ you don't need a union because it is the only company in Canada that listens to their employee groups. Actually a breath of fresh air. Public companies today are run by American CEOs who could give a .... about anything but getting rich.

[SaskStyle]

Trippin....next time you get your hands on some of that rum...you should send a case out west for the boys/girls at WW...they could use some of that diesel to get themselves fired up methinks!

Good point tho....set the park brake and sort this mess out....

I am still wondering where tubthumper is sitting in all this mess...shaking the hands of those fired saying "sorry to see you go" with both eyes fixed on the newly vacated positions? Correct me if I'm wrong...but you lack compassion...or maybe it's just lack of comprehension...either way...it leads to the next point...

At least with management, you know where the bullshit is coming from. And you can walk into the office and try and sort things out. However when you have a pilot group who won't support one of their own when he went to the office to try and sort those things out and as a result is fired....there's more required....

Protection from above is one thing but only one...When you can't look to your "friends" in the flight planning room that you go for beers with for support...then that's a whole other ball game. If the group isn't strong enough to stand together on their own..the union does just that.

I hate to say it but trippens got a point if every westwind plane stopped moving tommorow till those pilots were hired back what do you think would be the result?

having said that looking at the majors WJ would laugh at what their proposing. AC is loseing money with a union and I'd be willing to bet there are more millionairs at WJ then AC

happy employees are profitable employees

That's true...happy employees are profitable employees...but being in a union doesn't all of a sudden make you unhappy just as being at WJ doesn't magically make you happy. WJ should be recognized for being able to keep their pilot group satisfied with working conditions....

But union benefits extend beyond simply quality of life...ask the WJ boys who had the incident in LA how happy they were with the legal bill after?

[Trippin @350]

tubthumper is sitting in all this mess...shaking the hands of those fired saying "sorry to see you go" with both eyes fixed on the newly vacated positions? Correct me if I'm wrong...but you lack compassion...or maybe it's just lack of comprehension...either way...it leads to the next point...

tubthumper sounds like you're planning a promotion. where can i send a CV for a Captain position? I hear you're short captains.