Where did West Wind Aviation thread go???

[Tubthumper]

You and Trippin are acting like your family trees are straight lines , I"m sure they aren't. As soon as I can find an emoticon for compassion, I'll click on it. Maybe this is it:
Ok, Trippin, I'll correct you. Reading your posts, I'm sure you don't work here, however I do, so I have more comprehension of this than you do. I don't have all the answers, so I can't give them to you. Even if I did have them, I don't owe anyone here an explanation anyway. No, I don't agree with the two guys getting canned, and IFR said it right; actons are louder than words.

Saskstyle wrote:

...if they're both driving the same airplane, but one just got the upgrade...that would be considered a junior captain to the other...would it not?

...congratulations, you answered your own question. Your Scooby snacks are in the mail.

Unsafe decisions? Showing up late? Showing up drunk? Repeatedly disregarding airplane SOPs/Company OPs?

None of the above, I don't know what the real reasons were. Yes, I'd like to know.

...Unless he's independently wealthy, there are still mortgages to pay and groceries to buy...Bottom line is he still needs a job.

...well DUH! He still has one!

I got the message from your comment that you were trying to say it wasn't that big of a deal. It sounded to me like you were trying to impress that CP's resign to be line pilots all the time.

....now how did you get that? Of course it's big deal, morale is close to non-existant in 705 ops. When did you fall off, anyway? Or is it your dayjob?

...if it is, don't quit.

IFR 's last post was very good. Yet I don't see or hear compassion in it, do you? Or are you just singling my posts out?

[Trippin @350]

thanks tubthumper for the insight. i bet moral is in the toilet. the promotion joke was just that. i would send you a resume but i don't think i have enough hours for a direct entry position at WW.

so with all this mudslinging i decided to read WW mission statement on their website. you should all go visit the site.

"success built by commitment to our people"

nice airplanes though...

[Samaritan]

I can't imagine what the hold up would be in people standing up for their legally entitled rights. It is pretty clear throughout all of history that you can only trust management to look out for themselves, the well-being of their employees is pretty far from the top of their list of concerns.

So once a highly evolved human being capable of rational thought is able to fully grasp this fairly simple concept, the next question becomes, "So where does that leave me?" Well Sonny boy that leaves you in the position of having to be the one that is looking out for your own best interest. This sounds simple enough but in reality it becomes a lot tougher when people are trying to crawl over you to reach their own pot of gold a little quicker.

The only way to truly protect your own interests is to stand together and move forward with a common goal. It is a lot harder to push around and intimidate a group of people than it is to do it to an individual with limited resources.

[Cat Driver]

I can't imagine what the hold up would be in people standing up for their legally entitled rights. It is pretty clear throughout all of history that you can only trust management to look out for themselves, the well-being of their employees is pretty far from the top of their list of concerns.

You obviously have worked for the wrong people because there are lots of employers who truly value and look after their employees...and the funny part of it is they usually are successful companies.

[Hedley]

Yes, you have to wonder how companies like, say
WJ managed to become successful without unions

[Trippin @350]

Our mission:
To enrich the lives of everyone in WestJet's world by providing safe, friendly and affordable air travel.

Our values:
Commitment to safety
Positive and passionate in everything we do
Appreciative of our People and Guests
Fun, friendly and caring
Align the interests of WestJetters with the interests of the company
Honest, open and keep our commitments

Employees are an Asset not a Liability. Thus WJ management enjoy great dialogue with employee groups who share the same vision as the company. This usually leads to a successful outcome.

[SaskStyle]

I can't imagine what the hold up would be in people standing up for their legally entitled rights. It is pretty clear throughout all of history that you can only trust management to look out for themselves, the well-being of their employees is pretty far from the top of their list of concerns.

You obviously have worked for the wrong people because there are lots of employers who truly value and look after their employees...and the funny part of it is they usually are successful companies.

Spot on....Can't disagree with you...

Why then is WestWind....who is very undoubtably financially successful and arguably THE aviation company in Saskatchewan to fly for...now the center of attention when it comes to their pilots?

Maybe, the leaders of this company, and indirectly this industry, are forgetting those that got them to where they are...those who put in the hard work and dedication which was rewarded with good benefits and fair treatment....which then breed loyalty...

I know that the owners of WW put themselves on the line and took great personal risk as any entrepreneaur (sp??) does especially in aviation to get WW off the ground and guide it to where it is today.

But your greatest assets become your employees...

And tubthumper...thanks for the enlightenment...I especally appreciate you taking the time to find a picture of a truck...

You said you were unhappy that your coworkers were fired for no apparent reason. That's a normal feeling...and the right one...next step...what to do?

I don't know your situation or your ambitions...if you're there to build time and move on...that's fine....absolutely nothing wrong with that...you're right on when you don't have to answer to anyone...keep your mouth shut and you'll keep your bosses happy and you'll keep moving forward until you're ready to move on....

If you're planning on staying at WW for any length of time...than that's a different story. And your post answered, I think, a lot of questions as to why no one there is standing up beside those let go....

Take a look at how many views are on this thread...over 4000...that's a lot of inquiring minds wondering whats going on....

And so far the only attitude we've been shown from the actual pilot group is

I don't have all the answers, so I can't give them to you. Even if I did have them, I don't owe anyone here an explanation anyway. No, I don't agree with the two guys getting canned,

Not sure I would want you standing beside me when shit hits the fan.

[Cat Driver]

Deleted because it was not a fair comment.

[motionsick]

Well i am not even sure about how to start this post, but it's getting really old reading some of the garbage being put on here from people who have no idea as to what is going on! I think all of you who are quick to chastise the employees who are still working at WW should realize a few things.

What is going on has affected everyone in this company and we are all as employees trying to deal with it. You should realize that change doesn't necessarily happen over night. There are things being done try to fix this problem! Just because we are not posting everything on avcanada doesn't mean things aren't being looked at. If you have any kind of connection to WW you would know what is going on as well as what is being done and therefore not have to make accusations and call the remaining pilots spineless!

WW has always been a great company. I have worked for far far worse. That doesn't mean however that it can't be better either. This latest incident will for ever be an ugly scar on the face of management and i imagine there is regret with them as well. To respond to one great idea!! Shutting down the company not only affects management it affects logistics, maintenance, ramp and everyone else not mentioned in this company tho equally important. Now you have over 200 employees out of work, not getting paid and also affecting their families as well. Every area in this company has it's issues, but what company doesn't? There is no easy solution for this and it is unfortunate that it has happened.

That is pretty much all i will say on this. I am just asking to quit slagging the rest of the WW workforce for something that had happened that was out of our control. Things aren't always as they seem!

[SaskStyle]

So lets get this straight...the things that we as observers of this situation, should realize are...

1)

change doesn't necessarily happen over night.

2)

There are things being done try to fix this problem

3)

Things aren't always as they seem!

OK...

That's reassuring!

Have you given your comrades that were fired a phone call lately and let them know all that?

[Adora]

Motionsick,

I have no doubt that the happenings of late have affected the pilot group negatively. But for you to say change takes time...things are being done to make change. Give your head a shake. Change has been needed for a long time. The 705 pilots have been on the front of this battle for years. And guess what, the 705 guys that made to much noise to spark change are now gone. It is time to stand together as a PILOT GROUP, and say that this is not acceptable to us. We need change now!

[ifr]

What is going on has affected everyone in this company and we are all as employees trying to deal with it. You should realize that change doesn't necessarily happen over night. There are things being done try to fix this problem! Just because we are not posting everything on avcanada doesn't mean things aren't being looked at. If you have any kind of connection to WW you would know what is going on as well as what is being done and therefore not have to make accusations and call the remaining pilots spineless!

From an outsider's view, if things are being done to now try and fix this problem, why is management suddenly so enlightened? If it fell on deaf ears then, I believe their only regret is now those voices are being publicly heard so "s&%t! Now we have to do something"! As had been mentioned before, those responsible for management now taking the issues seriously were dismissed without their CP even around. Those still with the paycheck will benefit from the sacrifices of others. Great for you but where does that leave them? I have heard that some have not even answered phone calls to hear what is going on. They don't even have the 'spine' to listen to both sides and make an informed decision but chose to hide - apparently in their own little 'anti-union union'. However, many of them have a dream of working for another company - one that could very well be a unionized one. Ironic, wouldn't you say? Let others do the work but 'please don't make ME put my neck on the line to improve a situation'. May I never have to sit on a right or left seat from any of them.
[/b]

WW has always been a great company. I have worked for far far worse. That doesn't mean however that it can't be better either. This latest incident will for ever be an ugly scar on the face of management and i imagine there is regret with them as well. To respond to one great idea!! Shutting down the company not only affects management it affects logistics, maintenance, ramp and everyone else not mentioned in this company tho equally important. Now you have over 200 employees out of work, not getting paid and also affecting their families as well. Every area in this company has it's issues, but what company doesn't? There is no easy solution for this and it is unfortunate that it has happened.

WW was a great company. You are correct. However, it's growth has left some gaps that needed to be filled. And, if management has regret, over and above their decisions becoming public and not quietly disappearing, they would make the right move to re-employ those let go - realizing that the improvements wanted were improvements for the company as a whole and not just for the individuals themselves. You would think that the kind of management that had the b@lls to start this company would then have the b@lls to do what is right.

Now, I also feel that those other 200 employees would feel better, too. Any positive benefit to one group of employees would have an overriding positive benefit to everyone. After all if it can happen to the pilot group, positive or negative, it would just as easily happen to them.

That is pretty much all i will say on this. I am just asking to quit slagging the rest of the WW workforce for something that had happened that was out of our control. Things aren't always as they seem!

[/quote]

Yes, this IS in your control. That is what you are not realizing. Stand up for something. At the very least, stand up for those who stood up for you!

[ifr]

Apparently my coffee hadn't connected with my brain yet and some of my comments in the above reply went in the 'bigger' quote box - except for my very last comment. With luck and apparently not my skill, you can hopefully still make sense of it.

O.K. On another attempt, I fixed some of it. Maybe I need another cup of java - or have had one too many!

[timexd]

As an ex WWinder who worked there for a long time I can tell you that this is modus operandi for the ownership. Every few years this happens. Usually as a result of a few pilots actually believing,that when asked for an opinion in a pilot meeting, that management actually wants to hear it. Be very careful when speaking honestly in a pilot meeting with both of the owners present. I have seen LE storm out of a meeting in a rage when asked tough questions.

As for the 705 guys.....They have historically had it the best at WW for years. Good schedule, better pay. What about the poor 200 driver living off a pager and getting paid crap. When we on the charter side wanted a few years ago to form some kind of a comittee to deal with management issues, the 705 guys were not interested in participating. SO.......you reap what you sow.

....and the story wil continue.....

[ifr]

As an ex WWinder who worked there for a long time I can tell you that this is modus operandi for the ownership. Every few years this happens. Usually as a result of a few pilots actually believing,that when asked for an opinion in a pilot meeting, that management actually wants to hear it. Be very careful when speaking honestly in a pilot meeting with both of the owners present. I have seen LE storm out of a meeting in a rage when asked tough questions.

As for the 705 guys.....They have historically had it the best at WW for years. Good schedule, better pay. What about the poor 200 driver living off a pager and getting paid crap. When we on the charter side wanted a few years ago to form some kind of a comittee to deal with management issues, the 705 guys were not interested in participating. SO.......you reap what you sow.

....and the story wil continue.....

Were these pilots currently involved the same employees or are these different ones? If not, your comment isn't relevant because they weren't the ones that 'sowed' it. If I understand correctly, this group was trying as hard for that poor '200 driver living off a pager' as they knew they are usually the ones most nervous about standing up for themselves. If the 'poor 200 drivers' are the ones, sitting at home and not answering the phone, then it still holds true. They now have the option to work together with support from a more experienced sector of the company. As a group, they are larger in number so would have a bigger say and, quite possibly, enjoy the biggest benefit.

As you say .... you reap what you sow ... and it works the same for the 'poor 200 driver' as it does for the 705's - who incidentally may have been one of those 'poor 200 drivers' (at the time of which you speak) and they are now 'coming of age'!

[ifr]

Yes, you have to wonder how companies like, say
WJ managed to become successful without unions

You're right. So far, WJ has successfully been able to continue this way because they successfully listen to their employees and value their opinion - believing that constructive criticism (both positive and negative) is in their best interests as they 'listen, learn, and then grow'. From what I've seen, management there (so far) admit when a mistake is made and then tries to make things better. Hence - to grow from it.

As I said - so far. However, if WJ stops listening, and then begins to fire/let go senior employees without their CP around, etc. I do not believe that the WJ employees would stand for this. They work there because they believe in the present philosophy. If this philosophy would begin to change, then so would the employees' attitude - especially in the pilot sector. I would be extremely surprised if there then would not be an uprising within the ranks and rightly so.

[SaskStyle]

Had some more to add to the previous post....

Shutting down the company not only affects management it affects logistics, maintenance, ramp and everyone else not mentioned in this company tho equally important. Now you have over 200 employees out of work, not getting paid and also affecting their families as well. Every area in this company has it's issues, but what company doesn't?

Putting on the parking brake and affecting everyone else IS the desired ripple effect. THATS THE POINT....

I agree with a lot of posts that unions are not necessarily the right answer all the time...but...they serve to protect guys just like you dude....if you don't quite grasp some fundamental concepts about how the world turns....let those that do guide you and trust them.

And your attitude to just accept problems because every company has them is so traditional and a tiresome excuse in this industry....

Come up with something original at least if you want to defend your company. Come up with some independent fresh thoughts and ideas.......

As far as you being concerned about their families....I would say that that was awfully thoughtful of ya...except you seem to have forgotten about the families of the pilots already fired. No wonder we're such a divided group. You're more concerned about what might happen to support staff rather than what has happened to pilots....

[Trippin @350]

Adora,

I would think that since the 705 job is the premier job, it would also be the most senior positions. So those guys would undoubtedly know most about the need for change, etc. However, if those 705 guys don't come out here to participate and discuss what changes are required or how it will affect those in 703/704 then why bother. I wouldn't expect to be on a 1900 forever and the plan is to seek the upper atmosphere in a TurboFan one day. Thus, most people have short term goals at Charter Companies. Meanwhile those looking for longevity in the 705 department wishing for positive change may receive no solace from 703/704.


IFR,

Sounds like the bag of treats came out to lure pilots. Damn we can be a stupid bunch sometimes. Sometimes it is easy to get tricked by smoke and mirrors and thats why it is nice to have representation who knows better and can interpret these things for us.

[Roper]

Interesting reading throughout the thread. One thing that seems to be primarily consistent is the on-line support that the pilots seem to be receiving from apparently quite experienced pilots. Lots likely from former co-workers who have had the experience of working with one or more of them and who seem to have quite a bit of respect for. Otherwise, why such interest? Perhaps the fence sitters (or for that matter any of us) could ask ourselves ..... if found in the same situation, would we be able to garner the same reaction and support? If not, then what can be done to earn that amount of respect from our fellow co-workers.

[ifr]

Sounds like the bag of treats came out to lure pilots. Damn we can be a stupid bunch sometimes. Sometimes it is easy to get tricked by smoke and mirrors and thats why it is nice to have representation who knows better and can interpret these things for us.

I found this on another topic - thanks to Widow, I think. Could be relevant here.

"They must find it difficult - those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority." - Gerald Massey

[scouty-dog]

I am quite curious....why do people think this is a big deal?

#1 Pilots come and go. (last time I checked)
#2 Lots of in-house talent to fill 705 CP position.
#3 Occasionally, employees don't agree with management practices.

Welcome to aviation boys and girls. If you think this topic is interesting, then you are having a slow winter. The 'management' doesn't care, as long as mine contracts are completed, and nothing interrupts their 'retirement clock' so to speak. (which for many of them is very close to ringing).
The bigger issue is that not many of their high-time AME's are left (except two or three), and that 'they' truly keep the wheels in the air.

I am sorry that these pilot's families may have to move their families elsewhere for work. That isn't easy, but sometimes it must be done.

I know I have done it.

[Trippin @350]

very deep IFR.

scouty-dog. when pilots are let go who carry a shitty attitude, then fine so long biatch. however, some of these guys are stand up gentlemen. not sure if you live in saskatchewan but there is something about those types who never want to leave. home is home. i just can't imagine having someone wrongly order me out of my home. i wouldn't leave without a fight. would you?

this "top down" management structure exists everywhere and sadly our labour laws allow CEOs to rape companies wallets. mark my words, this is the organized crime of the century. funny how WJ is not run by American born CEOs and is successful, reinvests revenue for longevity, and has great company moral.

employees are normally loyal to their employer for pay. inexperienced pilots are loyal for flight time and type ratings. however, there will come a time when we reach a point where it is not about flight experience and ppc's, but rather pay and lifestyle. i am sure that is where those 705 guys are at. imagine giving years of loyal service in exchange for lower pay and flight experience. then it all happens. you are now making the good life - buy house, start family, etc. then it gets taken away.

so scouty-dog. if management doesn't care (as i agree with you) and you have pilots with no spine. who makes the noise within your flight ops? the loud guy quickly finds himself standing alone, then alone at the unemployment office. you just make it so obvious that we need unity within the group.

[KAFUFO]

One way to send a message to managment and find out who's on board vs who is an ass kisser

call a sick out. everyone gets sick days and if everyone is sick on monday the planes don't move managment is in the understanding that there is something wrong with the company.

If 90% of the staff show up than it tells you that people arn't bitchin for no reason, what's the company gonna do fire 50 % of the staff

P.M. me I know of 5 company's looking for both KA and 1900 F.O.'s and captians I'll have you a job tommorow making better wages and a rotatation out of saskatoon

edited for the ATR guy's I'm sure you can find your own work but if not I have opprotunities that I've said no to as well

[SaskStyle]

I am quite curious....why do people think this is a big deal?

#1 Pilots come and go. (last time I checked)
#2 Lots of in-house talent to fill 705 CP position.
#3 Occasionally, employees don't agree with management practices.

Welcome to aviation boys and girls. If you think this topic is interesting, then you are having a slow winter. The 'management' doesn't care, as long as mine contracts are completed, and nothing interrupts their 'retirement clock' so to speak. (which for many of them is very close to ringing).
The bigger issue is that not many of their high-time AME's are left (except two or three), and that 'they' truly keep the wheels in the air.

I am sorry that these pilot's families may have to move their families elsewhere for work. That isn't easy, but sometimes it must be done.

I know I have done it.

You're right on all three of your points.

I said on an earlier post that there is always movement due to seasonal demands, economic conditions, contractual issues, mergers.....you name it...the list is almost neverending....

However this isn't a typical situation.

*edited* Actually...I'm going to reword that....it is too typical of a situation in our industry.

I really don't think any of us held too many illusions that when we entered this industry, we would never have to move ourselves and our families. But MOST of the time, we do the move because we choose to leave for the so called greener pastures. However when you've found your own green pasture and you don't want to leave...you just want to iron out some conditions so that your personal life can be just that...and you're forced to find other work because of it...that's not part of the deal....and we shouldn't be turning a blind eye to it and throwing our hands up in the air saying "oh well, its just another day."

Like I said earlier, we have all done our part for whatever company we worked for....and that's just part of being a good employee...going above and beyond and expecting no reward to help the company out is a positive trait and commendable...it shows dedication, loyalty, good morale, sets a good example for other employees...etc....

but there are limits.....If the company starts to take advantage of "going above and beyond" and it becomes expected operations...then there has to be a line drawn....

I think you hit the nail on the head tho when referencing the AME's...why do you think management was so quick to fire those raising issues in the pilot group? Once (if) they get themselves organized and the other departments start seeing their successes...again there's that "ripple effect"...

[SaskStyle]

And as far as finding a replacement for the CP with "in-house talent...."

Finding a replacement was never the issue...

The issue was/is why did he choose to resign from that position?

He is well respected within the aviation community and a very experienced pilot...his opinion holds some weight...the timing of his decision speaks volumes about the situation. (a point lost on some, like my pal tubthumper...)

Whoever takes his place has a big seat to fill and will have his hands full...