Checklists

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single_swine_herder
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Re: Checklists

Post by single_swine_herder »

How about you operate the aircraft in the way the boss tells you to?

If he wants it done as a flow, you do a flow, if he wants a to do list, then that's what you do. If he is from the "Only a moron needs a checklist," school of thought and keeps it in a locked box at the rear of the baggage compartment only to be opened during a TC Ramp Inspection to show you have one .... fine, do everything from memory.

To me, doing what you're paid to do in the way you're trained to do it is at the core of being a professional pilot that I want in my organization in charge of a multi-million dollar company asset, not somebody that decides his way is the best like a rogue elephant, or exhibits the same degree of disdain for company procedures that a drug selling, string of hookers running, patched member of a motorcycle gang has for the vice cops.

They are a real delight in the cockpit when everyone else does what is expected of them, and then along comes "Captain Creative" that runs the cockpit in the classic style of .... "Shut up ... if I want any more shit from you, I'll squeeze your head. Throw that F'in checklist out the window before I shove it down your throat."

To you, somebody who says "screw your SOPs, Ops Manual, Training Program, and Line Checks, ..... stuff 'em where the sun don't shine cause I know better," might be exactly what you're looking for in a "resourceful, independent thinking" pilot .... well, more power to you.

Maybe the people I "give a chance to explore other opportunities in life" will make you a great employee.
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Checklists

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Oh sure, bring up the string of hookers.
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single_swine_herder
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Re: Checklists

Post by single_swine_herder »

It seemed like the time to bring out the heavy weapons Colonel!
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pdw
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Re: Checklists

Post by pdw »

Figuring out the flow is/was pretty much only possible using the checklist in the early days with the training aircraft when the learning curve teaches you so much at once (or it seemed), and then gradually you might start to do without referring to it so much ...

Having something go wrong like the iced airspeed indicators of "flight 447" ... then to see the way it was broadcast to the world how the whole crew was perplexed as they watched their aircraft fall and couldn't do anything about it because that checklist was too unfamiliar .... does say something about how other procedure lists could get a bit more attention instead. Maybe that's what this thread was trying to say that there could be more focus on more crucial items that have surfaced since the 'beginning of aviation' as we knew it ?
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Rookie50
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Re: Checklists

Post by Rookie50 »

Hmmmm. I just spent several hours creating my cockpit checklists for my aircraft customized from the POH to its equipment and systems.

Most of the detail is on emergencies and pre takeoff IFR type checks. Not so much on closing the door.

Maybe I should burn them anyway, that paper in the cockpit is truly evil.
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sidestick stirrer
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Re: Checklists

Post by sidestick stirrer »

The Colonel and I have been having a PM discussion on this topic which mst have prompted this thread.
I am curious as to how many silently recite the EFOTO/EFATO memory items before taking the active.
Was SOP on all the heavy metal I ever flew...
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Checklists

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Probably the most important problem you will ever deal
with in a piston twin, is an engine quitting at 200 AGL.

I have to ask - who here would pull out a nice long checklist
if that happened?

Like all the other very reasonable questions I have asked in
this thread, I'm pretty sure I'm going to get crickets on this
one, too.

Why are people not using a checklist for the most important
event that you can encounter? Don't you want to perform
it correctly?

The mantra is that checklists have no cost. The longer, the
better. Again, no cost for a longer checklist. And that they
are essential - safety cannot be achieved without them.

Ok, I will buy the rhetoric. Why no checklist for an engine
failure at 200 AGL?
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Rookie50
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Re: Checklists

Post by Rookie50 »

Colonel Sanders wrote:Probably the most important problem you will ever deal
with in a piston twin, is an engine quitting at 200 AGL.

I have to ask - who here would pull out a nice long checklist
if that happened?

Like all the other very reasonable questions I have asked in
this thread, I'm pretty sure I'm going to get crickets on this
one, too.

Why are people not using a checklist for the most important
event that you can encounter? Don't you want to perform
it correctly?

The mantra is that checklists have no cost. The longer, the
better. Again, no cost for a longer checklist. And that they
are essential - safety cannot be achieved without them.

Ok, I will buy the rhetoric. Why no checklist for an engine
failure at 200 AGL?
Emergency Checklists can be used to study on the ground, and certain critical ones memorized, like actions in an engine failure. Just a reference tool to hopefully back up our brains and understanding of the systems.
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Checklists

Post by Colonel Sanders »

Ok, but why aren't you using a checklist in the
airplane for the most important thing you will
ever do?
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Checklists

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Before every takeoff, I make my PPL students verbalize the immediate action drills for a malfunction affecting flight safety that occurs before liftoff and the actions for an engine failure/fire after liftoff and below 1000 feet AGL. I also have the student touch the applicable control as they verbalize the actions to build muscle memory.

Pop quiz: What is the most important thing to do if the engine where to fail during the last part of the takeoff roll ?
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New_PIC
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Re: Checklists

Post by New_PIC »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: ...
Pop quiz: What is the most important thing to do if the engine where to fail during the last part of the takeoff roll ?
I'll bite (witness the fool rushing in ...) Is it 'close the throttle'? Just so the thing doesn't light up again while you're trying to get stopped. Maybe kill the mixture would be better, assuming you have one.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Checklists

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

New_PIC wrote:
Big Pistons Forever wrote: ...
Pop quiz: What is the most important thing to do if the engine where to fail during the last part of the takeoff roll ?
I'll bite (witness the fool rushing in ...) Is it 'close the throttle'? Just so the thing doesn't light up again while you're trying to get stopped. Maybe kill the mixture would be better, assuming you have one.
Very good, "close the throttle" iis first action to take if rejecting the takeoff. A pilot I know wrecked his C 172 when he thought the engine had suddenly quit just before he was about to liftoff. He slammed on the brakes but left the throttle full in. The problem was that the engine had only partially failed and was still delivering some forward thrust. Because of this he was unable to stop on the remaining runway and the aircraft wound up in a ditch with its back broken. :cry:
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Re: Checklists

Post by trampbike »

Colonel Sanders wrote: Gosh. What a new and revolutionary idea - from 70 years ago!
Those horribly undisciplined military pilots. When will they ever learn?
On primary flight training in Portage, if the aircraft is moving (taxi, takeoff,
post takeoff, pre-landing and final checks), the checks are done from memory.

All the critical emergencies (fire on the ground, brake failure, flat tire,
runaway elevator trim, engine fire in flight, wing fire, electrical fire,
CO, EFATO, engine failure at altitude, rough engine/power loss)
have to be perfectly memorized before you even get to touch the aircraft.

We get to use a checklist for non-critical emergencies (yellow pages)
and for engine start, run-up, post-landing, and shutdown.
They expect us to use the checklist since time and SA is not really an issue here,
and it would be too damn stupid to fail a flight for a single missed check during a run-up!

The training syllabus has less than 15 hours in the plane, and halfway through the training
we end up also having memorized those checks without even trying.
The sequences are logical, the cockpit has a nice flow to it, and with enough chair flying,
you should know pretty much everything about the non-critical emergencies.

This is on a 260hp engine, constant speed prop, retractable gear, fully aerobatic aircraft,
on which the trainees (many without any previous flying experience) will have to perform PFL,
EFATO, loops, rolls, spins, accelerated stalls, unusual attitudes, steep turns, closed patterns,
learn 6 different circuits, radio procedures etc... and solo, within 15 hours of flight time.

Needless to say, there is something terribly wrong with many FTUs way of training people and how they use checklists.
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AirFrame
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Re: Checklists

Post by AirFrame »

Until I trained with SidestickStirrer in the RV, i'd never heard the EFOTO/EFATO acronyms, nor their mating acronyms TSB and SLAM. I now recite them (quietly, or internally) before takeoff.

This weekend I did a three-leg flight without using my checklist for startup or runup... The only times I ever used checklists anyway. After I completed startup, I reviewed the checklist, and I hadn't missed anything. Ditto after the runup. I'm not sure i'll completely ditch the checklists, but I may stop using them *first* and just do the "post-review" check for a while. Three flights isn't enough to make me confident that i've got them memorized.
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Rookie50
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Re: Checklists

Post by Rookie50 »

TSB and slam? I give up.
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Alberta_Canada
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Re: Checklists

Post by Alberta_Canada »

Can I bug one of you gents for the breakdown on what EFATO, EFOTO means? (is that engine fire after takeoff, and on takeoff?)
What does TSB or SLAM translate to?
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Re: Checklists

Post by trampbike »

EFATO: engine failure after takeoff (on the climb out)
EFOTO: engine failure on takeoff (on or over the runway)

Never heard of TSB and SLAM
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Re: Checklists

Post by sidestick stirrer »

SLAM is the acronym that the military used to train their ab-initio students in the steps following an engine failure at low altitude after takeoff.
Instead of a printed checklist or a flow that tried to be all-encompassing in trying to recover the engine, this acronym concentrated on flying the airplane and is simple enough that any panicky newbie can recall it:

S: straight ahead
L: lower the nose( a lot more of a pitch change than people realize)
A: airspeed( maintain best engine-out glide speed)
M: Mayday ( not the formal call, just the one word then shut up and fly the airplane until it has come to complete stop)
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sidestick stirrer
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Re: Checklists

Post by sidestick stirrer »

Many FTUs follow the previously-stated mantra that checklists are only done when the airplane is stationary. If it is in motion, either taxiing or airborne, everything is a flow...
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Re: Checklists

Post by AirFrame »

EFOTO - Engine Failure On Take Off (still on runway, or long enough runway that you're back on it immediately)
Procedure: TSB - Throttle to idle, Stick back, Brakes until you stop.

EFATO - Engine Failure After Take Off (not making it back to the runway)
Procedure: SLAM - Stick forward, wings Level, Airspeed at best glide, Mayday (if there's time)
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Re: Checklists

Post by Colonel Sanders »

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