Is it only Sunwing?

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True North
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by True North »

Strobes wrote:
True North wrote: Well there it is. Very clearly stated, the self interest of the Sunwing pilot.
Oh sweet, does that mean I have a job at WingWing now?

Awesome, i was wondering when I'd get a 705 job!


Careful True North, assume makes an ass out of u and me...
Nope, only u.
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atphat
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by atphat »

Strobes is obviously trolling. If he actually believes what he's saying and doesn't work at sunwing then that's just sad and pathetic
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mbav8r
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by mbav8r »

atphat wrote:Strobes is obviously trolling. If he actually believes what he's saying and doesn't work at sunwing then that's just sad and pathetic
That was my initial thought so I figured I would point out the crux of the matter in case he/she was just an imbecile.
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Strobes
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by Strobes »

Glad you think so. I still believe in what I said. Here are a few disjointed thoughts on the matter:

I do not wish any harm or unemployment to pilots, canadian or not, or anyone for the matter. I want everyone to have jobs, to feel like productive members of society. In the end, feeling valued is what we all strive for. It's why we work, right? The pursuit of happiness.

This is a tough world. It's a global world - remember the HSBC ads plastered all over YYZ's T1 bridges. It wasn't long ago that NAFTA and other free-trade agreements made many good-paying Canadian jobs disappear like puffs of smoke and migrate to Mexico, China, or India. The protests coming from both blue and white collar groups soon died off because people love to pay the minimum for the maximum. Economics 101 baby. As for the TFWs, they aren't here to steal your jobs (it's the biggest lie unions and the political left has told us. Just look at immigration issues south of the border...), they are here to provide economic value to Sunwing and all Canadians who travel south in the winter, and then they (the pilots) return to Europe to provide value to their employers there too.

In the end, I think we should market ourselves better. Kinda like we Canadian pilots go work as expats in the Sandbox or Far East. We marketed ourselves better than locals did over there. We took the right jobs, flew the right aircraft, and answered the questions correctly in the interview. And now, Canadians have a very good reputation in the developing aviation markets. As such, don't go in an interview thinking you're entitled and wearing flip flops and a hawaian shirt, if the rumours are true. I mean that in both a literal and figurative way. You are all productive human beings, and there are [up to] 7 billion other human beings out there. Why you, instead of them? Make them want you to work for them. Tons of people could do your job - mind you, with a bit of training and flight experience, which gives us an edge - and yet we still call it "unfair".

Sorry guys and gals, I feel your pain, but the whining's getting to me. Trying to force others [who follow market forces] to do your bidding is a misguided trust in government, and whether you're successful or not, another company is going to find ways to make you miserable with some other thing very soon - with a law backing it up too. Instead of pushing in a direction, I find it more useful to my life and to society to be part of the ones who pull. E.g Elon Musk vs OWS. When it's time for me to find another job, I will do my best effort to market myself to the right company for the right price. Not get Lisa Ratt or Steve-O to legislate me a job with an omnibus bill. Besides, big government created this mess because we, as a population, demanded it!

My ex-neighbour is a farmer. Nearly a million bucks in yearly sales, family business yada yada yada. Can't hire Canadians at a good wage, has to bring in 3-8 workers from Mexico every year to help. Got his first Canadian employee that started to work there last week - the last one was me when I was mowing his lawn as a teen. Which leads me to this: Your meal today was probably harvested, or at the very least, produced by a TFW. They are a part of life. They are everywhere. They are humans, like you and me, who wish to create a better life for themselves, their families, and to feel valued. Their temp employers found value in them.

This debate is sounding very xenophobe at times, makes me uncomfortable, and I don't think I'm the only one that feels that way. For pointers on how bad it can devolve, google Germany circa 1930. Extreme example, I know, but all it takes to start is name calling. Like Sinwing or Scumwing. Come on, it's a company that employs tons of people, and mostly Canadians too! Aren't you happy for the hundreds of crews and support staff and office staff that work there? Some of you don't even want to give 'em that. All or nothing. Well, hint hint, the world doesn't work like that. We gotta give and take. Like a relationship.

As for the eye for an eye argument (105 vs 105). How many planes is WG sending out to Europe this year? 4, 5? That's what, 50ish pilots? Maybe not quite 50%, yet that's 50 pilots that wouldn't get furloughed for the summer. Any seasonal contract FOs from the winter season get permanency because of those foreign deployments? It's a drop in the bucket, yet 20,000 Canadians lost their jobs last month.

Anyways, I'm tired of this, I know I'll attract the equivalent flak of a couple dozens' Patriot missile batteries for my views, so, hope you enjoyed it, hope it helps you see that there are pilots in Canada who think a seven-score of TFPs here for 5 months is actually not as horrible a thing, and yeah - "I'm an imbecile". Reminds me of getting called that in grade 6. I chuckled.

The idea of a level playing field is, at best, utopia, yet extremely noble, and I hope to see a semblance of it in my old age. However, some ideas posted in this forum wants not only a level playing field, but a referee who disallows any GWG, and thus a tie game at the final buzzer. Welcome to planet Earth. It don't work like that. War is hell.

Good day.
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atphat
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by atphat »

Blah blah blah.
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True North
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by True North »

Strobes,

What a lovely post. You are obviously a thoughtful, compassionate, very altruistic individual. We can only strive to be more like you.

I'm on the line with the Pope right now. I've nominated you for a sainthood.
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mbav8r
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by mbav8r »

For the record, I didn't actually call you an imbecile, just implied it.
Now, as for your thoughts on the matter even though you said you were done, feel free to market yourself in another country but if you think for even one second this would not spread to other Canadian tour operators and cause a domino effect throughout the entire industry you might want to reflect a little.
The debate has gone on, for good reason, far too long. Why? Because it's still on going, Sunwing has grown their market share with this practice at the expense of Canadian jobs, no jobs lost you say, well Canjet pilots might disagree. No negative consequences you might say, AT pilots agreed to concessions to complete with Sunwing. Not to mention if the demand is there and it wasn't TFWs, guess who would be flying those Canadian passengers, Canadian pilots.
Also, Sunwing sent 4 planes but brought over 5 wet leases and over 100 TFWs, so no where near 50%, just to clarify.
I honestly think that you or any Canadian who thinks this is ok, is trying to provoke or might just be an imbecile, just sayin.
Comparing farm hands at minimum wage to pilots, weak, very weak but also the reason that job pays minimum wage. If farmers were forced to hire Canadians the wage would have to go up to attract applicants, but I digress.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

We should collectively really feel sorry for the Travel Service (TVS) pilots who come to Canada to work for Sunwing.

According to this Website: http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Travel_Service
Capt top 4000 after tax 16/Feb/15
Capt base EUR 1700,-
15/Dec/13
FO top 3000after tax 16/Feb/15
FO base EUR 1200,- (Junior FO's salary for first 18 months EUR 660 EUR) 1
All these are net salaries after Tax but one must keep in mind that Income Tax in the Czech Republic is 15% of salary.

Travel Service Captain base salary is 1700 Euros a month ($27684 Canadian dollars per year).
Top Captain pay is pay is 4000 Euros ($65,000 Canadian dollars)
A Junior FO earns 660 Euros per month ($11,000 Can per year) and goes to 1200 Euros per month ($19548 Can per year) after 18 months.

Add 15% to all that and you will see their gross salaries

I heard that they must also pay for the type ratings out of their pockets.

So obviously, they need to come to Canada and make as much overtime as Sunwing is willing to pay to them and save up those per diems too. They have houses to pay and families to look after in the Czech Republic, just like we do in Canada.

So those people here in Canada who make such high salaries under ideal conditions for doing the exact same job should be ashamed for trying to take food off of the the table of these people's children when they count on Canada's TFW program to feed their families.

Not to mention that it's thanks to exploiting people like them that Sunwing is able to make such high profits that allows the company to hire so other Canadian employees, most of which are contracted ground crews and airport agents, not to mention all the Cuban Travel Industry workers that count on Sunwing's business.

Shame on all those cold hearted people that want to put a stop to this practice.

Especially since all those highly qualified Canadian pilots, who have now lost their jobs, have that possibility, thanks to the good reputation Canadian pilots have worldwide, to go work in Asia or in the Middle East, for very lucrative salaries, jobs that are mostly off limits to those poor poor Czech pilots, who have no other option but to do these contracts in Canada for Sunwing.

PS : When the Canadian pilots go for interviews in Asia or the Middle East, they should refrain from wearing Hawaiian shirts and open toed sandals for the interviews, and from using F-words when replying to questions, as they all seem to have done during their Sunwing interviews (A lot of them were probably Newfie pilots ......).
Wear suits and ties, new shinny black leather shoes, and use proper language at all times. Those of you hired in China can save those F-Words for your Chinese co-pilots once you are hired.....
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timel
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by timel »

If Sunwing had ethics, they would not hire pilots from Travel Service who do P2F. If UNIFOR had guts, they would be pissed about that.
Those FOs pay for type rating, pay in order to have an interview, earn 1200€/month, they must be available 365 days 24/24hr...

Way to go guys!



http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-368424.html

Avoid at all costs.

I enquired and asked a few probing questions. All I got was this crappy reply. They cant even be bothered to correct the syntax.

Dear Mr. /Mrs.
I´m sending you details regarding the position on A 320 at the company Travel Service.
From Travel Service we have demand after 5 crew for A 320. Financial information depends of the company Travel Service - standard is to pay one part FIX and one part flight hours plus per diem.
After you will passed successfully the selection procedure, Travel Service will choose from the candidates and then you will be employee of the company Travel Service and all guilty conditions and tax in Czech republic will be apply to you.
Accomodation and transport will be paid by yourself. You´ll be flying for the Latvian branch but you will be employee of Travel Service. The time of your start at Travel Service should be begin on May this year.
I would recommend to have a look on websites of Travel Service to see the destinations they have, norma per month is cca 80-100 hrs.
In the case you are interested to participate in the selection procedure, please make the obligated confirmation. The payment for selection procedure must hit our account on 10th of April at the latest and we kindly ask you for sending the receipt of the payment via e-mail.

Payment details:
Price: 5.850,- CZK (incl. 19% VAT)

Payment via wire transfer, Bank connection:
account No: 149252329/0800,
SWIFT code: GIBA CZ PX,
IBAN code: CZ89 0800 0000 0001 4925 2329,
variable symbol is your birth date.

Please let us know as soon as possible if you want take a part at this procedure to arrange all what is necessary.
All I can say, that I went to their selection 1 n a half year ago. I did good on the tests and on the personal interview as well. I offered that they can arrange a Job with Travelservice if I finance my own TR. They help u find a loan too. They organized the type rating in Germany for us. The exam was done by a check( Czech :) ) captain from Travel Service (who came to Germany just for this) and it was our proficiency check for the company at the same time. Than few days later we did the 6 landings what's part of the TR, with a company plane. There were 5 of us for this flight, switched seats and shared the cost of the fuel. After the TR was complete we started to work at Travel Service flying B737-800 (and being payed ;))!
I am very thankful that they helped me to this wonderful job. Of course it had a cost , coz AeroJob is not a charity organization who do this only for his own health in their spare time for the sake of aviation.
And a very important detail, I am not Czech!
Travel Service doesn't do selections, they prefer candidates through AeroJob
:)
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monkey
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by monkey »

How many travel service A/C did transat lease this past winter?

How many anglophone canjet guys will transat hire?

Exactly. :roll:
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

We leased two. But just the aircraft. No pilots. Are the aircraft contaminated ?

As for the second question, I don't know how many, but my Simulator partner on my check ride TODAY happened to be one of them.
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Spaceshuttle
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by Spaceshuttle »

Not sure if this is supposed to be funny?

PS : When the Canadian pilots go for interviews in Asia or the Middle East, they should refrain from wearing Hawaiian shirts and open toed sandals for the interviews, and from using F-words when replying to questions, as they all seem to have done during their Sunwing interviews (A lot of them were probably Newfie pilots ......).
Wear suits and ties, new shinny black leather shoes, and use proper language at all times. Those of you hired in China can save those F-Words for your Chinese co-pilots once you are hired.....



Making fun of "Newfie" pilots? IGNORANT STATEMENT !!
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sunshinee
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by sunshinee »

So let me see if I got this right.

Lets say AT is hiring 100 plus pilots, I have all the requiremwnts and more, including type rating and captain time.

I show up to the interview wearing torned jeans,sneakers, t-shirt and I swear and complain about all.

So if I follow and the things said about SW means I should be hired direct entry captain at AT or am I missing something ?
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Spaceshuttle wrote:Not sure if this is supposed to be funny?

PS : When the Canadian pilots go for interviews in Asia or the Middle East, they should refrain from wearing Hawaiian shirts and open toed sandals for the interviews, and from using F-words when replying to questions, as they all seem to have done during their Sunwing interviews (A lot of them were probably Newfie pilots ......).
Wear suits and ties, new shinny black leather shoes, and use proper language at all times. Those of you hired in China can save those F-Words for your Chinese co-pilots once you are hired.....



Making fun of "Newfie" pilots? IGNORANT STATEMENT !!
I dont know ? Was this one supposed to be funny ?

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... ow#p928226
Tip on how to not market oneself during an interview if one wants to get a job.

1)- Don't show up for the interview in Jeans.

2)- When expressing yourself during an interview....it is best to refrain from using "F" Bombs.

Seriously folks... Having a Type Rating is probably not going to help over looking that kind of behaviour.
And this, was it a joke ?

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 21#p929283
As such, don't go in an interview thinking you're entitled and wearing flip flops and a hawaian shirt, if the rumours are true.
Next thing you know, we'll hear that some ex Canjet pilots were turned down because they showed up at their Sunwing interview in Bozo the Clown suits, and that is why they need to hire TFW pilot ?
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Spaceshuttle
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by Spaceshuttle »

Someone makes an obviously ridiculous statement about interviews at Sunwing and we are to follow up with remarks about peoples heritage or origin. I thought this was a battle between CANADIAN pilots and Foreign worker policies in Canada?

No I do not think making fun of someones heritage is appropriate or funny under any guise which includes all pilots, from foreign to Canadian to landed immigrant status. This is a policy matter and should be treated in a more professional manner.
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Takeoff OK
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by Takeoff OK »

Spaceshuttle wrote:Someone makes an obviously ridiculous statement about interviews at Sunwing and we are to follow up with remarks about peoples heritage or origin. I thought this was a battle between CANADIAN pilots and Foreign worker policies in Canada?

No I do not think making fun of someones heritage is appropriate or funny under any guise which includes all pilots, from foreign to Canadian to landed immigrant status. This is a policy matter and should be treated in a more professional manner.
Oh Christ! Just f'n relax there chief.
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7ECA
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by 7ECA »

Takeoff OK wrote:
Spaceshuttle wrote:Someone makes an obviously ridiculous statement about interviews at Sunwing and we are to follow up with remarks about peoples heritage or origin. I thought this was a battle between CANADIAN pilots and Foreign worker policies in Canada?

No I do not think making fun of someones heritage is appropriate or funny under any guise which includes all pilots, from foreign to Canadian to landed immigrant status. This is a policy matter and should be treated in a more professional manner.
Oh Christ! Just f'n relax there chief.
Lord tunderin' Jesus. :lol:
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Geronimo
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by Geronimo »

Ok let's put some figures on the table....
During winter 2011 Sunwing operated a fleet of around 25 A/C....and 160 + Foreign pilots!
Next Winter Sunwing will have around 37 a/c and..105.. foreign pilots "only"..
The number ( and the percentage )of foreign pilots employed by Sunwing during the winter keep decreasing for the last 5 years!
I don't known for you guys...but for me it looks like a positive trend!
Unless somebody comes with a miracle solution,( haven't seen any so far ) or maybe tries to convince Canadians to travel down south during summer time as much as they do during the winter ,things won't change radically by tomorrow..It takes time.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Geronimo wrote:Ok let's put some figures on the table....
During winter 2011 Sunwing operated a fleet of around 25 A/C....and 160 + Foreign pilots!
Next Winter Sunwing will have around 37 a/c and..105.. foreign pilots "only"..
The number ( and the percentage )of foreign pilots employed by Sunwing during the winter keep decreasing for the last 5 years!
I don't known for you guys...but for me it looks like a positive trend!
Unless somebody comes with a miracle solution,( haven't seen any so far ) or maybe tries to convince Canadians to travel down south during summer time as much as they do during the winter ,things won't change radically by tomorrow..It takes time.
You are missing part of the equation:

What about the wet-leases of Foreign Aircraft Sunwing has been using ?

1 in 2011-2012 (roughly 15 Foreign pilots)
4 in 2013-2014 (roughly 60 Foreign pilots)
5 in 2014-2015 (roughly 75 Foreign pilots)

Sunwing loves to tell everyone that they send Canadian Wet-Leases to Europe in the summer, but the Foreign Wet-Leases that Sunwing imports into Canada each winter, on top of TFW pilots, do not seem to count ?

So Geromimo, in light of these figures :

In 2011-2012 Sunwing had 160 "Reciprocal" pilots, 4 TFW Pilots and about 15 Wet-Lease pilots. for a total of 179 Foreign pilots.
I can't remember the 2012-2013 number from memory but they were close to 2013-2014.
In 2013-2014 Sunwing had 120 TFW and 60 Wet-Lease Foreign pilots for a total of 180 Foreign pilots
In 2014-2015 Sunwing had 110 TFW and 75 Wet-Lease Foreign pilots for a total of 185 Foreign pilots.

There are several possible solutions, but whichever one is chosen, it should be Canadian.
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AirMail
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by AirMail »

Remember when WestJet started up and all the foreign ppc'd pilots they employed for all those years? Neither do I. What "positive trend" are you referring to? Why was it necessary to begin with. It's not hard to have that number of TFW to 0. They coulda done it this year or any in the recent past. What about next year? It's not rocket science, it's playing the government policy that was designed to help companies cover jobs most Canadians don't want. Last I heard, there's plenty of Canadians that want a job at Sunwing... why is beyond me :roll:
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trey kule
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by trey kule »

Well, that pretty much answers my question. Not much talk of TFW abuse in rotorwing section.
Not much else than Sunwings. Seems to me they are either the figurative poster child for TFW abuse, or a target of some group , who is using the TFW issue to advance their own agenda.

I believe there are problems with the TFW program. But the targeting of Sunwings goes far past that, in my opinion. It marginalizes the true issues. Using a cause celebere to advance your own agenda is a bit deceitful, but I guess if it works...

And it seems Strobes was right...just disagree with the mob and wait for the abuse to start. Only anti-Sunwing people have a right to voice an opinion, and throw out facts, however doubtful, without fear or rebuttal.
Anyone with a differring, less radical opinion will be abused and marginalized, Not the first time in history this tactic has been employed.

Now I must go put on my Hawaiian shirt , flip flops, and get ready for an interview.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

You were right about nothing Trey Kule, this is the airline Forum, not the helicopter Forum.
The post about Helicopter TFW pilots is in the helicopter Forum and if that is what you wanted to hear about, that is where you should have posted. Ever since Canjet ceased importing TFW pilots, Sunwing is the only 705 Operator doing this in Canada, which other airlines could we talk about ?

Of course your wet dream is Air Transat.

The only thing you demonstrated is your bias for TFW, while pretenting to be some sort of neutral thinker, which you are not. You are very clearly in favour of the status quo in this matter, you think TFW pilots have their place in Canada. Your numerous posts trying to explain that the only reason I have been fighting this is to harm Transat's competition.

My wake up call was in the fall of 2011, when for the first time in years, Air Transat laid off a group of pilots, while at the same time, Canjet who was flying for Transat, was importing TFW pilots. Canjet was not Transat's competition.

Our "unqualified" pilots were laid off while Canjet was claiming "Labour shortages" in Canada to justify importing TFW pilots.

That same winter, we received word from several Sunwing pilots that the airline had more foreign pilots than Canadians. They found this unacceptable.

I then decided that it was not just my employment that was under threat, but my very livelyhood, my profession. Something I had invested my whole life into, and I was not going to let corporate greed take it away from me.
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rudder
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by rudder »

The summer program at SWG is just 4 aircraft in Europe. So, from a proportionality perspective the wet lease programs are similar.

Therefore, it is the TFWP staffing at SW that needs to be examined in isolation.

Obvious to any reasonable observer that since ZERO SW pilots go to Europe under foreign worker programs that any Eurpoean pilots coming to Canada under that program should only be here only if there is a true and demonstrated shortage of qualified Canadian pilots to do that work.

So the question is were there enough applicants for the 145 seasonal positions and were they qualified per the revised terms issued by HRDC and Labour Canada? Also, what role has UNIFOR played in impeding the use of qualified Canadian pilots as Seasonal Captains?

I am not so naive as to think that the fix was not already in for the coming winter in this regard. So perhaps all that is left is possible changes for next winter.

Time will tell.
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aycarumba
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by aycarumba »

Can AvCanada ban Sunwing from advertising on here already???

I know more than 20 people applied; some with internal references and met all requirements and NO CALL. Who are they trying to fool but themselves.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Is it only Sunwing?

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

They put the ad for 145 seasonal pilots, both First Officers and Captains.

Sunwing will hire about 40 Canadian pilots. All of these will be First Officers.

The balance, about 105 positions, will be given to TFW pilots from Thomson, TUIFly, JetAirfly, ArkeFly and Travel Service.

The contract between Sunwing and it's pilots states that Seasonal Captains cannot be Canadians.

These ads serve the purpose of convincing the good people at ESDC that they made enormous efforts to hire and train Canadian pilots, as regulations require them to, and that its only after all Canadian made solutions had been considered and exhausted that they had no other choice but to reluctantly make use of TFW pilots as last resort.

In the meantime, all qualified Canadian pilots who apply to Sunwing and who meet or exceed the requirements listed in the ad are either not called for interviews, or interviewed and found unsuitable or incompatible, save for the 40 or so Canadian pilots that they will hire.

We know its BS. Sunwing knows its BS. ESDC knows its BS. But unless someone does something, the 105 TFW pilots will once again be approved.
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